Episode 48: Q&A: Are multiple riders good or bad? Training Secrets?

SWS048.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

SWS048.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Speaker1:
Podcasting from a little cabin on a hill. This is the Stacy Westfall podcast. Stacy's goal is simple to teach you to understand why horses do what they do, as well as the action steps for creating clear, confident communication with your horses.

Speaker2:
Hi, I'm Stacy Westfall and I'm here to teach you how to understand, enjoy and successfully train your own horses. In this episode, I'm going to answer some of the audio questions that have come in. If you have a question you would like to ask or a subject you'd like to hear more about, you can leave a voicemail by visiting my website and clicking the orange tab on the right hand side that says send voicemail for podcast use. Let's get started.

Speaker3:
Hi Stacy, my name is Jamie and I just have a quick question for you. First of all, I love your podcast and I've listened to every single one of them and have just really enjoyed it has really helped me with my relationship with my horse. And um, I own a gaited horse, I own a Missouri Fox trotter, and so sometimes I watch different shows. I'm not really into showing, um, for gaits, but, um, you know, in the process have learned, you know, that different, different trainers, different show people do some different things in order to get their horse to present a certain gait or, um, show a certain way. And so, um, I'm just curious in the, you know, in the Western riding world, is there certain techniques I've seen people, um, say that they put, you know, even simple things like, you know, you're putting, uh, earplugs in your horse's ears or is there a calming supplements or is there different things that, um, that professionals are using when they're showing their horses, that those of us who aren't professionals and are doing this at home are maybe, um, you know, maybe we don't know or it's, you know, are we all are we trying to shoot for something that isn't possible because there's that part of the missing puzzle or piece or, um, and I'm just curious, you know, with your horses. I have really enjoyed watching your show prep, and I like how the time that you put into it and, you know, taking them several days before, those are things that I would have never guessed. And so I'm just curious, is, is there other things that you do with them? So thanks so much.

Speaker2:
Thank you for your question, Jamie. And it happens that I'm in a very reflective mood after returning from the Western Dressage World show with Gabby and Willow, which was kind of the end of that whole process you've been watching on YouTube when you reference watching the show prep, because that was the YouTube video series, The Trail to the World show, and I'm still mentally processing everything that I've done this year with Willow and Gabby to figure out how it has fit into their training and my progression and my understanding of horses. So I'm going to answer your question from a few different angles. The biggest and broadest angle that I could answer your question from would be that there are just different opinions out there. And when I say opinions, I'm actually going even bigger than opinion. It's almost just different life theories. So let's just make this really clear and say I'm going to make it three different trainers. I'm just going to say this trainer number one, trainer number two, and trainer number three. And I'm going to make these very animated descriptions of them very exaggerated descriptions so that you get the point that I'm trying to make. So let's just say that trainer number one is willing to do anything to win. They're willing to do anything legal, illegal, ethical, unethical. Basically, it's win at all costs and the horses are almost disposable. And when I say disposable, it means that maybe they're training one and they'll push it so hard that, you know, if the horse gets hurt, they don't really worry too much about it.

Speaker2:
They might sell it or send it away, get another one. Just kind of keep on moving. This is sort of that that really bad description of a trainer that shows that people get stuck in their head. And thankfully, that's not the majority of the show world, but it is out there. And I'm just going to say that there's that trainer that exists. And then let's say that there's trainer number two who wants the best for the horse, the best for the customer. They work really hard to communicate with the customer, to communicate with the horse and the training, and they really work to bring out the best in the horse and the rider. So that's trainer number two. And then let's say that there's trainer number three. And they got into training a long time ago, decades ago built a career here. But when you're around them you get the slight feeling that they're a little bit burned out. I remember when I was in high school, even back then, I remembered being around some teachers that felt a little bit burned out. Maybe you could just consider them lukewarm, like they were just kind of showing up and going through the motions. But as the student, you didn't really feel like they were that passionate about being a teacher. And I'm going to tell you that that also exists in the horse world.

Speaker2:
Now, I've just outlined like three different types of trainers. There are many, many more than that. So when you say that you see different trainers doing different things and asking about different results, for sure you're going to see that. But that's just happening in life anyway. Whether you look at sports or whether you look at school teachers or different professions. So first of all, let's go really broad and just say that you're going to see differences due to the way that people are looking at the end result. And then when you ask yourself the question, are we missing something at home? You do actually have to pick what you're going to compare to. So for example, I never want to be that trainer who will do anything to win. I don't want to be the trainer that would do anything illegal, unethical, any kind of that thing like that. So if you look at a trainer that will do that and then you look at a trainer that won't do that, you're going to see that. Could you say something is missing? So your question, are we at home missing something? Well, sometimes missing something is that you're unaware of it. Like I think is one of your questions. Like, are we unaware of, you know, earplugs helping us or something like that? But what I'm also going to say is there is a difference, but it doesn't. You can't see the difference as easy there is unaware like you don't know it exists.

Speaker2:
And then there's also the choice of I won't do that. And either way, I just want to put it out there that those are are things that are out there. So you might get to the point where you can see even more things being done. Like we're just going to use your example of the earplugs, but you may choose not to use them. So then you have to decide also that whether that's an advantage or a disadvantage. So let's go ahead and actually talk about an actual physical example like the earplugs for now. So when you ask the question, you know, are there little things like the earplugs or calming supplements or different things like that. So if you look at earplugs, I've used earplugs in horses in the past when I was doing mounted shooting. So you have to ask the question, why did I use the earplugs? Well, I used the earplugs in my horses during mounted of shooting because of the physical damage that could be done to the horse's hearing. So I was using earplugs on myself, and I was using earplugs on my horse because I was shooting blanks out of my guns, and it was very loud. So I was using it for that physical reason. So the question I would have, if you see somebody who's using the earplugs, because let's say that they're afraid the horse is going to have a reaction when the crowd claps.

Speaker2:
So now it's getting more clear that the crowd clapping is not a noise loud enough to do damage to the horse's physical ears. So now that is somebody who's using earplugs because they're using it for, let's say, a mental advantage. But if you look at it from my point of view, I'm not calling a mental advantage by putting in the earplugs, because I would rather take the long way around and teach the horse how to control its emotions and how to understand and process that loud noise without having that big reaction. And I'm willing to work a long time to get there, because I think that at the end of when I'm done training this horse or at the end of the day or whatever you want to put out there for a point, my satisfaction comes from educating the horse, so I am putting the education of the horse above the outcome of the show or the class. So for me, the earplugs are out as an option or a thing that I would do to be able to go win a class, because that's my own personal preference. It's not because I think you're evil if you use earplugs. I used earplugs when I was using the guns and doing the mounted shooting, so it's much more a stance on kind of training philosophy. So again, when you ask, are you missing something at home? You're going to have to make your decisions, and you're going to have to weigh out what you believe in and what you want to stand for and do.

Speaker2:
And again, like the earplugs are a great example because it's not the end of the world one way or the other, whether you use earplugs. But what I'm saying is that when I look at it from the horse's standpoint, for sure, if they were needed for physical, like during the mounted shooting, I would use them. But I'm questioning whether or not using the earplugs is actually helping the horse with a mental issue, like the stress of the crowd clapping, or whether that's a training issue I should address. And then you can take it even further by saying, does the rider become dependent on on thinking that these earplugs are going to be the, the, the, the 1% difference that gets them a win in the class? Or what if they've got these earplugs in the horse and the horse shakes its head halfway through the class, and one earplug pops out because I had that happen to me when I was standing around, you know, getting ready to go in the class and run my horse in the amount of shooting, they can shake their head and pop an earplug out. Well, now you're like, if you're doing this because you think it might be a 1% difference, it probably doesn't bother you that much. But if you're doing it because you've avoided training the horse to understand how to control its emotions in that situation, then you're going to be much more uptight and nervous, thinking, oh no! When the crowd claps, are they going to react? And you're going to get tense and you're going to transfer that tension to the horse because you're having that mental reaction which is now reflecting in your body physically, which is now reflecting in your horse's mental and physical body because they're like, oh no, my rider feels really tense.

Speaker2:
So this is why I prefer to do a lot of these things that are like a long, long, slow process. But at the end I know what I want with my horses is the most solid citizen that I can. And for sure that means that if I don't win a class, that's completely fine. So one other angle I want to add here is that when you were watching me doing the videos for the trail to the world show, and I was showing you, Willow and Gabby and their progress and the training, it's interesting because I tried to share everything that I could, but there will be little things that you can pick up on that I might forget to say. So, for example, something that kept falling through the cracks was the fact that I never clipped them. So I never did clip a bridle path or ears or muzzle or anything on Willow and Gabby all year. So if you go back and you watch me showing in the traditional dressage and I've got all these braids in and all this stuff, and still I hadn't clipped.

Speaker2:
And that is another example that you could kind of compare close to the earplugs and say, you know, well, did that judge not like me because I didn't clip or, you know, am I going to have an advantage if I clip or these little things that are, again, they fall in this like 1% category? And I think that a lot of times people are looking for these little, these little fixes or these little things like if I clipped or if I did this or if I did that, would it make a big difference? And so I kind of decided not to clip this year and just show that the judges really didn't care. There would never once was a comment from a judge, or even when I come out of the class. Sometimes I don't think I, I don't think I remembered to videotape any of it. But when I come out of the class showing in either Western or English, then there is somebody there that checks the horse to make sure that your equipment is legal, and checks the horse to make sure that they're not rubbed anywhere or anything like that. And so even those people that were checking my horses, they never mentioned that my horses weren't clipped. They never made a note of it. Nobody, even spectators or people that came up to me and just talked to me at the show.

Speaker2:
Nobody ever mentioned it. So however, I've seen people get really hung up on the idea that, you know, if their horse wasn't really well clipped, that this was going to be a problem. And then you can ask yourself the question, well, if you as the rider, if you're really stressed out by the fact that your horse's whiskers are getting a little bit long, then, you know, is this are you blaming this on the judges, or is this something that's more your thing? And for sure, there are some certain classes, like in a halter class where traditionally the horses are supposed to be clipped, there would be places where the horses, you know, the judges would be judging your horse under a different set of rules. And that's where we go back and we say, you really need to know the rules and again to speak to your earplug situation. There's actually a lot of rules that regulate things like that. So in the mounted shooting, the earplugs are legal and even encouraged. But then there are going to be other shows where they are illegal, and you would not have the option of using earplugs. And then there'll be another set of shows where it will be kind of an unspoken gray area, so it won't be written as legal or illegal, it just won't really be addressed. And that would leave you the freedom to choose one way or the other. So I think it's really interesting when you look at something as almost simple as the question, you know, are there things at home that we're missing? I noticed different trainers do different things.

Speaker2:
It's it's a very valid question, but it's also a very big question because without knowing it, you're asking a lot Thought about where different people draw their different lines in the sand to get the different results that they're getting. And this is one of the reasons why I often encourage people who are in the situation like you are, Jamie, where you're learning and you're asking questions. I'll often say, find someone, a trainer or someone that's putting information out there that you can follow their mental process and their process with their horses from beginning to end, from start to finish. So you can kind of see the whole let's look at that like an arc, like a rainbow that you can see it start on this side and you can follow all the way through to the other side, because then that's going to give you a very I'm going to just use the word sequential. But this, this very big, broad view of how the whole thing fits together. The puzzle you mentioned, like are there any pieces that we're missing? So if you watch somebody where you can see all of it, that's going to give you an idea of that one person's whole thing. Then you can also So look around at different trainers and maybe you'll decide you want to follow somebody else from start to finish.

Speaker2:
Or maybe you'll start picking up other points from different trainers and you'll say, well, I can kind of see where that trainer is coming at this from a different angle. So this trainer is saying you'll get quicker results by using earplugs, but this trainer over here is saying that they would rather take the longer way around because of a of a long term outcome for the horse. And that's the long game of learning this industry. But I really actually think that the horse industry, whether you look at it as training or showing, I think it is a reflection of life, because in life you're going to have different opinions on how you should parent your kids and how you should do your, you know, laundry. There's opinions on how you should fold your clothes and how you should clean your house and you know all these different things that are out there. So I think that when you look at the horse industry, you'll start to realize that it's kind of the same thing. You're going to see a lot of different trainers doing a lot of different things and getting a lot of different results. The first thing to do is to try to break them into some of those bigger categories of what you're looking at, and whether or not it fits with what you would want to do with your horse. And then you go from there. Thanks for the question. Let's listen to the next question.

Speaker4:
Hi Stacy, this is Sarah from Ontario. I was introduced to your training by my neighbor Chet Martin, and I've been watching the Jacques Video Diaries and listening to the podcast, and I absolutely love them both. So I have a question that is sort of a two part question about, um, multiple people riding a single horse. So I know it's good for us to ride different horses so that we become more flexible and learn more about what each horse needs. But is it good for the horse to have multiple riders, and is that different for a horse that you're trying to take further along? Maybe having different exercisers or trainers ride that horse? And what would the impacts on the horse be? And also for a simpler horse like a trail buddy, what are things that you can do to ensure that maybe a novice rider or a husband rider isn't doing any damage to your horse, or to his training, or to his attitude? Or do you think it's just a bad idea to have multiple people ride the same horse? So that's my question, and I hope someday to hear that you will be doing a clinic in Ontario, because I would love to attend that. Thank you very much.

Speaker2:
Thank you for your question, Sarah. And I do agree with you that it is a good thing for riders to ride different horses to gain experience. The question of whether or not it's good for horses to have multiple riders has. You're going to guess it. Multiple layers to it. When I look at horses having different riders, I'm going to jump back to the idea that I've presented about horses being in elementary school, high school, and then college. And when I personally have a horse in elementary school, I would rather see a lot of consistency with the person that rides and trains the horse. And the reason for that is that the horses tend to be really impressionable during that stage, and they tend to do. They learn quicker and they just kind of excel when the rules are really consistent. Now, somewhere around high school and for sure up in college level, the horses start to be able to switch gears quicker. They understand more, they have more confidence they can fill in the blanks. And at that point, having multiple riders tends to be less confusing for the horse. Now, what's interesting is you've also heard me talk about grandma's rules. Well, if you have really consistent training. So let's say that that horse is started by a person and is trained by the same trainer for, you know, the the whole part, the whole time that the horse is in elementary school. So as that horse is getting more advanced, what happens is they don't really experiment with grandma's rules because the rules are always the same.

Speaker2:
They've got this one person that's training them. It's really consistent. They understand where the rules are because they do like to experiment. Horses do experiment a lot like children do, and they kind of push and ask questions and they kind of want to know. And that's a healthy part of learning. And so they learn what these rules are and they start to accept them when they get up into high school or college. I do think it's nice to give the horses the experience of understanding different people? Because it's really interesting? A lot of times I'll have a horse that I've been training for. Let's just say that I've been training one for, you know, nine months or a year, and nobody else has gotten on it the first time somebody else gets on it. A lot of times that might be my husband. It's always interesting to see the horse, and I say that we must ride with a different accent, because you can tell that the horse is like, I get it, but it's slightly different. And I actually did record that process back in the Stacy's video diary. Jack. There is an episode where I'm actually videotaping my husband riding Jack for the first time, and that was the first time Jack had been ridden by anybody but myself. And it is important to me how that's done, because I just really love the idea of prevent, prevent, prevent.

Speaker2:
So basically one of my biggest training philosophies is that we're trying to keep these horses out of trouble, prevent problems for as long as possible, and if you build these horses up and their confidence is high and you've prevented any problems, then the horses tend to be really confident. And they don't. They're not as scared. So when I have a horse that I want to move along with quickly, I'm going to stay super consistent with who's riding it through elementary school. And then as it gets up into high school or college, I actually start to reverse that idea and think that having the horse have a little more experience with different people will actually build that horse's confidence in a different level. So, for example, if my husband gets on and the horse is a little bit confused, they generally have the idea, but you can see that the horse seems unsure as long as that person who gets on them is kind and helps them through it. Then the horse starts to go, oh, I see how this works. Even though it's a slightly different accent. I almost couldn't understand you. If you want to think about it like it's like you listening to somebody who speaks with a slight accent. Well, the horse starts to get more confidence that they did understand that person. So it really matters who gets on your horse. A really bad example of of how to have this happen that you actually may have run into before is let's say that you have a horse and it's got really nice training, but it's still pretty green.

Speaker2:
And let's say that that horse goes up for sale and somebody comes and gets on that horse to try it out, and that person that gets on the horse to try it out is really hard on that horse. That can be a really difficult thing for that horse to understand, because that horse has been, you know, going along and trying, and then this person gets on and is, you know, not very kind to that horse and, and is just kind of like correcting that horse kind of harshly, even if whether it's it doesn't really matter whether the humans involved think it's as harsh as long as if the horse thinks it's harsh, the horse is going to have this reaction like, whoa, out of nowhere, the third person I ever talked to in my life or I'm just, you know, whatever the number is, was really hard on me that can shake a horse's confidence. But this gets, of course, more complicated because you take a horse like Willow. And that would really shake her confidence because she tends to not have as much confidence. You take a horse like Gabby, and it wouldn't shake Gabby's confidence as much, because we're looking at different temperaments there, so you can kind of see how it is. But in my own barn, what I prefer to do is I keep them a little bit protected and sheltered in their elementary school years.

Speaker2:
I start to open it up a little bit more when they're in their high school years, which is why on some of the videos with Willow, you've seen like little clips of other people riding her. And so if I want to go trail riding, totally can put somebody else on Willow and go trail riding. And then, you know, by college years you can get these horses. We actually consider it part of our training program to get these horses really comfortable with different riders switching on. So basically, the horses become fluent in understanding the different accents that different people will have. So when you ask the question, what are the impacts? That's kind of the whole broad spectrum of, you know how it can impact them. There can be negative impacts if if early on somebody gets on is just really hard on them, it's going to be even more accentuated. If that horse was a sensitive horse like Willow. But then if you're trying to take a horse further along, I will tell you that. Think of it like having a coach. If you had a coach, and it wouldn't matter really if it was a physical coach or let's say you were getting coaching on on how to take your mental game and, you know, to be able to excel more at your Business. You can get to know your coach really well, and as you develop that relationship, you can just kind of move quicker because you understand your coach, where they're coming from and all that back.

Speaker2:
History helps you understand the current thing you're working on. And that's the same thing with a horse. So if you keep switching trainers really often, the horse gets a different experience of going back and kind of relearning, you know, the nuances of elementary school but spoken from different accents. So if I was going to go learn a different language, like I'm going to go learn German, then I'm going to go back to like very elementary school type of language. But if I stick with the language I'm comfortable with, I can go further and faster, especially with somebody that I understand their background. Same kind of thing applies with horses. Now to answer your question, more about the the trail buddy, the horse and you're putting different people on and you're kind of worried about damage being done. So when I when I look at that, I try to figure out what words I could put in there that would illustrate more damage being done. So it's like if I say, I've got this trail horse that I want to be able to allow other people to get on and ride. Well, right now I can say that could be Willow and I say, what would constitute damage being done? So I'm replacing that. And in my mind, the biggest thing that pops up is her being scared. So if it scares Willow, it's probably going to fall into the damage being done.

Speaker2:
That's why in my example a minute ago, with the horse being for sale and somebody coming and getting on and being really hard on that horse, the reason I'm calling that a problem is because the horse probably got scared by that, and in my mind that is damage being done. Obviously you could also go in the physical damage being done category, but we're going to assume that we've all got a big line in the sand there. So we're not going to talk about physical damage being done to the horses. We're talking a little bit more about that mental damage, that shaken confidence being done. So if I am going to let somebody's trail ride Willow, you know, I, I don't let them use Spurs because she doesn't need spurs. I use them for refinement when I am showing, but she can totally be ridden without them and she's very willing. And that would be one less thing for them to possibly make a mistake with. And so I do these little things to help my horse out. And then I'm right there beside her with the person, and I say, you know, she can be ridden on this length of rein. And during here, right here, I want you to shorten up the reins and help her right here. And so that would be my personal views on how I keep that quote unquote damage from being done. And I think it's kind of fun to watch them learn grandma's rules.

Speaker2:
Because again, if you've been training the horse and you're the only trainer for a long time. So like example again, Willow, I was the only one that rode her for a very long time. And then when I started letting other people ride her, I made sure it was something she was really comfortable with, like trail riding. And then I made sure that it was people that were going to be very kind to her. And even then, you could still see her get a little bit like, you know, she could feel the difference. But what's fun is she's gotten really confident because of the way that I've done it. She's actually more confident right now. Listen to this. Because it goes back to the last podcast right now. She's more confident when other people get on that they're not going to ask hardly anything of her because she knows me best, but I actually ask the most of her. So in a way, even though she has a lot of confidence with me, she also realizes I might ask for a lot of work. And at this point she's a little bit more like, oh, if Stacy lets somebody else ride me, it's going to be a piece of cake. So she's getting that kind of experience, and so she's getting more and more just confident that whoever climbs on her is just going to want to go walk down the trail and not do a lot.

Speaker2:
And I think that's going to serve her well. For as I progress into letting people ride her and ask for a little bit more. So maybe somebody gets on her and they learn how to do shoulder in, or somebody gets on her and they learn how to do a flying lead change. As her confidence level goes up, she will be able to do that without a concern and again without damage, which I'm going to replace with without being scared because I'm going to be built. Her confidence. So is it absolutely necessary that horses get ridden by multiple riders? No, I don't think so. But is it damaging if they get ridden by multiple riders? I don't think so. If it's done well and I actually think it can help build the horse's confidence if you are very intentional about how it's done. Thanks again for your question and say hi to chat for me in the next podcast, I'm going to answer more questions that have come in. In the next season of the podcast, I'm going to discuss equipment, so if you have any questions around saddles or bridles or any other equipment that you would use with your horse, please call in and leave your message or send me an email. If you've been listening and enjoying the podcast, consider leaving a review in the podcast player that you're listening on. Thanks for joining me, and I'll talk to you again in the next episode.

Speaker1:
If you enjoy listening to Stacy's podcast, please visit Stacy Westfall. Com for articles, videos and tips to help you and your horse succeed.

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