Episode 353: When Cues Become Conversations

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Speaker1:
If you pay attention and you’re willing to see your horse’s point of view, you can begin to see that your cue system can grow into a conversation with your horse because of this feedback loop.

Speaker2:
Podcasting from a little cabin on a hill. This is the Stacy Westfall podcast. Stacy’s goal is simple to teach you to understand why horses do what they do, as well as the action steps for creating clear, confident communication with your horses.

Speaker1:
Hi, I’m Stacey Westfall and I’m here to help you understand, enjoy and successfully train your own horses. In this episode, I want to discuss how your cue system can become a conversation with your horse. This idea first occurred to me this week when I was leading Ember towards the spot where I normally hang up my lunch lines after doing groundwork. As I was walking towards that area, I glanced back at her for a moment and in response to me looking over my shoulder, she began offering a certain shape in her body. Now keep in mind, I had not asked her for anything. I just glanced back over my shoulder, and in that moment I thought, this is a great example of where handlers or riders have a choice. Are they going to view this as a cue system or a conversation? So let’s look at it like this. Someone could be in a very similar situation, and they could glance back over and think, oh, why is the horse doing that? I didn’t ask her to do that. She shouldn’t be doing that. That type of response from the handler indicates that they’re looking at the interaction with the horse as a series of cuz I cued that you should be doing it. I didn’t cue that. You shouldn’t be doing it. However, if you like the idea of having a conversation with your horse, then you’ll need to go a little deeper.

Speaker1:
You’ll want to understand both the cue system and the language that it creates. So I believe that a cue system is the foundation of the language between us. It’s basically like teaching words. Those words happen to be acted out with our bodies. So the conversation between horse and handler, if it’s groundwork or horse and rider if you’re riding that conversation, is a physical interaction between the two of us where the words happen to be movements. Ember offering me that shape when I glanced over my shoulder, got me thinking about how the plain cue system becomes a transition to conversation. And what I discovered is that that transition happens because of a rider’s point of view. I saw this happen two more times this week with different students. Let me see if sharing their examples makes it more clear to you. With the first student, we were talking about the new things that she had been teaching her horse this week, and she made an observation. She had taken the horse somewhere new and she didn’t have her normal equipment with her, but she decided that she wanted to send him in a certain area so he could walk through a specific type of footing change. And what she noticed was that when she went to send him, it didn’t work. But what she really noticed was that when she went to send him, the way that it didn’t work was interesting. He was trying to do what she had been working on in the arena.

Speaker1:
He was offering to do the new thing she had been teaching him at home. Now, keep in mind, she wasn’t in the arena and she didn’t mean to be cueing this. So even though she wasn’t using her traditional tools and cueing it, exactly the minute that he offered that answer, she was able to see from his perspective or his point of view, how her body language had caused it. To me, this was a really big deal because she recognized his behavior and then was able to see her own body position from his point of view. And that shows me as her coach that she is viewing her horse’s behavior as a feedback loop, even when things aren’t going as planned. This also means she’s in conversation with her horse. The second example came from a student who basically said to me, yes, this new technique that you showed me is working, but now that I’ve done it for a couple of days, I have a new problem, which is he’s anticipating. And my response to this was great. Here’s the backstory. She was practicing groundwork that creates a lot of draw or desire to come to the handler. Her goal is to do liberty work, and that draw or desire to come closer to the handler is what replaces the lead rope. In her case, the horse was offering this answer before she asked the question.

Speaker1:
My question back to her was this okay if him offering this isn’t a problem, but instead it’s revealing that a different cue Q is weak. What? Q is weak. Look at it like this. It is often true that when you strengthen one cue, it’s going to reveal a weakness in another area. In this case, the weakness was in the ability to push or send the horse further out. Both are needed. We need the push and the pull. One mistake I often see riders or handlers make is thinking something like, oh no, I’ve overdone this, so in her case created too much draw and therefore the answer is to create less draw. No, listen to the difference. You don’t need less draw. You need more ability to push the horse back out the connection. And this really shows up in liberty work. That connection actually deepens as you develop both the push and the pull together. This is a great example of how one cue begins to strengthen the other. That strong desire for the horse to come in close allows the handler to then strengthen the ability to push the horse back out while still maintaining connection. But if you head down the path of reducing the draw, removing that desire to come in close, removing that anticipation, you also lose the ability to strengthen that push that pushes them back out because the push and the pull have to be strengthened together.

Speaker1:
What makes people a little bit crazy is that often one needs to get a little bit stronger so that you can then turn around and strengthen the other. So there’s going to be this moment where it feels out of balance. And that’s really the point of this episode. If you pay attention and you’re willing to see your horse’s point of view, you can begin to see that your cue system can grow into a conversation with your horse because of this feedback loop. Sometimes when you’re having this quote unquote conversation with your horse, sometimes that conversation is going to look smooth. Or let’s say sometimes the conversation is going to go in a direction that you want it to. And other times, it’s going to look like the things that your horse offers you. The question or the feedback is going to be something that gets you thinking, huh? How did this conversation go this direction? And that’s actually what a great conversation does. It gets you thinking. Back in episode 312, I gave a riding example of this same challenge using my mare Luna. In that episode, I talked about how I was creating a strong desire in her in one area, which was really great, but it also turned around and challenged my other aides like my go forward queue. It’s the same principle. When a horse tries really hard in one area, it will reveal a weakness in another, but it also will reveal how you’re viewing the entire situation.

Speaker1:
I’m going to go ahead and replay that episode now, and I want you to think about how what first looks like a problem can actually be proof that your horse is learning, and how it’s really about your ability to see those questions or those directions that the conversation takes as opportunity for deepening the connection and answering those horses questions. Let’s listen to that replay now. In this episode, I want to share something that was recently happening with my horse, Luna, that could be viewed as a problem, or it can be seen as a way to use anticipation in your favor. I’m going to explain the problem and how I caused it. Then I’m going to explain two options for getting rid of the problem. And finally I will explain why I’m going with option three, which is choosing to view the problem as a good thing. Full disclaimer I love the early stages of training. I love elementary and early high school stages, and I recognize that in these stages, people are often frustrated because of the questions the horses ask, and the horses are often asking questions that point out what they view as contradictions. Let’s look at the definition of a contradiction. A contradiction is a combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are opposed to one another. How the heck could your horse be thinking there are contradictions? Okay, first of all, I’m aware that I don’t view these things as contradictions.

Speaker1:
I view them as additional layers or adding more details, and that might be the way that you’re viewing it too. But I’m also aware that as horses move from one stage to another, they can easily view things as contradictions. Let’s look at an example. Let’s say that you are a rider who wants your horse to slow down and gather itself together. Let’s say the trot is unbearably bouncy to ride, and you would like the horse to gather itself together, not be so fast and rushing. Go into what we could call a medium trot, and the word we most often use in this situation is that we would like the horse to collect or gather itself together. So in this example, the rider wants the horse to collect. So what do they often do? The rider will often gather up the reins to begin to slow the horse down, but the rider will also apply their leg to keep the horse from walking or stopping. It’s understandable that the horse could view this application of Aids as a contradiction from the horse’s point of view. The horse could be thinking. You want me to stop, but you’re not letting me stop? Okay, you want me to go, but you’re not letting me go. I am aware that I don’t view this as a contradiction, but I’m also aware that the horse that’s now learning this concept can easily view it as a contradiction.

Speaker1:
The first idea that I would like you to take away from this podcast is that for the horse, it will often seem like there are actual contradictions. I think most people want to view or understand how everything works together, and this is especially true if you really, really desire to do everything, quote unquote, right. That desire to make sure you apply the Aids exactly correctly and that everything will work together is a very genuine and useful desire to have. However, I think it’s also helpful to look at the parts that might seem contradictory to your horse. So when I say that I see the horse’s challenge when as a rider, I begin to use my reins to slow them down and my legs to keep them going. That doesn’t mean I have to give up my belief that they are capable of learning a high school level concept. It just means that the elementary level trained horse is going to view this as a contradiction. So it makes sense that they’re going to struggle a little bit. So my ability to hold both thoughts as true. It’s true. The horse could see this as a contradiction. And it’s true that they are capable. This is something horses can learn. And this is something I can teach. Those don’t have to be one or the other.

Speaker1:
I actually find it useful to look at both being true. I first got thinking about how to share this concept with you while I was riding my horse, Luna. The example I’m about to share with you involves teaching a horse to spin, and I’m aware that many of you are not teaching your horses how to spin. But I actually think that sometimes learning about something that you don’t always do leaves you more open to thinking about the concepts, and keeps you from getting stuck in the technique. So let’s go to the backstory, the problem, and how I caused it. Luna is learning how to spin. She is at the stage where I’m wanting her to have a little bit more speed and a little bit more of a trot step as she does this turn on the haunches. So in order to increase her speed of her footwork, I have been preparing for my spins by trotting small circles. When I say small circles, picture trotting a circle that’s about somewhere between 12 to 15ft across. And then I go from this trot circle and I transition into a spin. My desire is for her to get her trot footwork very quick and then transition that quick foot speed that she has in the small trot circle into that trot rhythm in her spin. I’ve been doing this for a little while, where I do preparation with the trot circle and then transition to the spin, and now she has recognized this pattern.

Speaker1:
I trot small circles and then I release her into a spin. And this is causing the problem of it’s getting harder and harder to keep her trotting in the circles. As I trot, she is wanting to slow down and gather herself up and go into the spin. So I’m having trouble keeping her trotting. Sometimes we’re trotting, and then she suddenly throws her shoulder to essentially dive into a spin. Do you see the problem? Is this a problem or a good thing? Or a bit of both? Let’s first approach it as though it was a problem, and let’s look at some of the possible solutions. Option one I could stop doing trot circles before I spin. If I stopped doing trot circles before the spin, then Luna wouldn’t see the trot circles and then think spin. This is logical. So it’s true that if I stop doing the trot circles before I spin, she would begin to disconnect the trough circles from the spin so she wouldn’t see a trot circle and then predict the spin is coming. The spin is coming. Now let’s look at the potential flaw or the challenge. The potential flaw or the challenge with this is thinking that she won’t anticipate spinning. Whatever I do before the spin, she is likely to attach to the spin. So let’s say I stop doing trot circles and I do walk circles.

Speaker1:
Then she’s likely to think, okay, we do walk circles and then we go into the spin. So let’s solve that by removing that. And let’s say that I’m just walking in a straight line and then I go into a spin. What often happens with horses like this is that they then begin randomly throwing the spin into anything less. Preparation is not necessarily the best answer to what to do when the horse is anticipating. Because instead of her anticipating the spin in a trot circle or anticipating the spin after a series of walk circles, I can essentially begin to just move the problem of diving into the spin around. So that would mean maybe I’m walking and I just take her into a spin so she doesn’t have any chance to anticipate, but then she begins to anticipate it everywhere. Which brings up another question is anticipation really the problem? Okay, let’s go to option two. Option two I could do trot circles and disconnect them from the spin. That means I could do 3 or 4 trot circles and then not spin trot circles, and then go walk around the arena, trot circles and then stop and stand still and let’s go even more detailed. Let’s say that I do that at a ratio of something like 9 to 1. So that means I do a set of trot circles. So I do 3 or 4 trot circles.

Speaker1:
That’s one set. And then I go walk around the arena. So that’s one set followed by walking away. Let’s say that I do another set of trot circles and then I walk a few feet in stop. Then let’s say I do another set of trot circles, and then I just trot to a bigger circle. I eventually could get the ratio to where nine times I did trot circles of 3 or 4 and did not take her into the spin. I went and randomly did something else, and then maybe one out of ten times I would take her into the spin. The point is, the majority of the time I would be going somewhere else or doing something else. So in this example, it’s true. I could disassociate the trot circles from the spin. I could make it so she would no longer see trot circles and think spin. But this brings up the question again. Is removing the anticipation desirable? I think it’s easy to label anticipation as a bad thing. But what I have found is that anticipation is often a powerful tool. If you’ve ever taught a horse to stop when you say the word whoa, you have used anticipation in your favor. If you’ve ever taught a horse to go. When you give a verbal cluck, then you have used anticipation in your favor, so anticipation can be a powerful thing and anticipation can cause challenges.

Speaker1:
So it’s true. If I moved the ratio of circles being followed by anything else, not the spin, she would eventually disassociate the trot circles from the spin. She would no longer see trot circles and think spin. So now let me explain option three and how I’m going to handle this dance. My thinking, and the reason I’m choosing option three is that although the anticipation is truly causing challenges, the anticipation is also a good thing. In fact, I believe her anticipation is part of her desire to spin. It is part of what’s creating what we would call a draw to spin. So it feels like the spin is like a magnet drawing her into it as opposed to me, quote unquote, making her spin. She’s begging to spin. She wants to spin. She’s drawn with a desire to spin. So it’s her internal motivation to spin that is actually being displayed when she’s anticipating it. So think of it for a moment from Luna’s point of view. She knows for a fact the spin is coming, and because she knows it’s coming, she wants to go into the spin because inside the spin is where I’m going to say whoa and stop and praise her. So even though the spin is kind of a hard thing to do, it also represents something she understands. I systematically taught her in slow motion how to do it, and then I added the trot circles.

Speaker1:
And now she deeply desires to go into the spin, puts in effort and goes knowing that there is a whoa, a stop, and me praising her on the other side. So even though the spin is a hard thing, she’s actually volunteering to do it because she’s applying a concept that I’ve talked about before on the podcast. I’ve created a situation where she wants to do the thing that I want her to do, and I am preventing her from doing it. When I keep her in the trot circles, and then I allow her to go into the spin, which is where all of her desire and her speed is coming from. This example of anticipation Asian is happening as I am moving up the stages of training the spin. In the very beginning, her spin didn’t have this level of anticipation. For example, Amber is just learning how to spin and she’s in a very step by step phase, and trotting the circles that Luna is doing would actually be too advanced. So Amber is learning the mechanical steps, but without the speed, and it also comes without as much anticipation. Luna happens to be at the stage where I want to add speed, so I’m actually using her anticipation to my advantage when she sees the trot circle and knows the spin is coming. It actually feels a little bit like she’s excited like a kid with Christmas coming. She’s excited and ready to go.

Speaker1:
She’s asking to spin. It’s actually a really cool feeling, except if you focus on the problems that it’s causing in the cross circle, it would be very easy for someone to focus on the problems. When Luna offers to dive in with her shoulder, that could become something that someone would hyper focus on and want to completely get rid of. Just notice. Completely getting rid of it would also reduce some of that asking or that desire. It would also be very easy to really focus on the fact that she’s slowing down without being asked to, because again, she’s gathering herself up to spin, so that could be seen as a resistance to going forward. And that’s partially true, but I think it’s worth keeping in mind why she’s doing that. So you begin to see there’s a dance between what she’s offering and how I want to approach supporting her or helping her. So again, as the rider or the trainer or Luna’s coach, I need to see that these problems in her form, if we want to look at it like that, it’s like she’s got poor form in her trot circle, but these problems are actually coming from her putting in a high degree of effort. They are mistakes from Luna trying too hard. So although I do address these problems, I don’t try to stomp them out like something’s on fire. I don’t make her burning desire to spin into a problem.

Speaker1:
I keep gently guiding her out or gently guiding her forward. I am persistent, but I’m not trying to remove her thought of the spin. A different way I could explain it is I’m not looking for a plus trough circles right now. I’m looking for maybe B minus trot circles with that effort and readiness, so that the minute I ask her to go into the spin, she takes all of her effort into it. So I’m finding the edge of a good enough circle where she’s still thinking about the spin, and I feel that thinking reflected in her body as her desire to slow down, or as her desire to go into the spin. But I’m not actually allowing her to throw herself into the spin, and I’m not actually allowing her to refuse to go forward right on the edge of a good enough circle with a lot of desire. Right there is where I can gently open the door, which happens to be my inside leg, and invite her into a spin, and she goes there with a lot of effort. Here’s a different example of allowing. This is a piece of a success story that one of my students inside my Resourceful Writer program recently shared. It says your ability to describe things from the horse’s viewpoint has helped me tremendously. The single best topic has been teaching my horse to hunt for the stop.

Speaker1:
The very first time I consciously allowed him to stop on the trail just happened to coincide with him having to pee. Then he stopped to pee every time we rode out for at least a month. Trail riding is so much calmer now. In fact, he now exaggerates and stops just to pretend he might have to pee. Ha ha. Anyway, I can canter up a hill and he slows to a walk at the top instead of battling me. I can trot for a while and he will relax his neck and will now transition to a walk when asked. Instead of working up an anxious head of steam. Your consistent explanations from the horse’s viewpoint are pure gold. Thank you. There are several things I really like about this story. Number one, this tells me that I’ve got a rider with an awareness of when they might be able to release, because even though the rider didn’t know the horse was getting ready to pee, the rider did sense that the horse was asking the question about slowing down and the rider allowed it. So the first thing I notice in this story is the rider’s level of awareness. The second thing that stands out to me in this story is that although many riders could think, oh no, I’ve caused a huge problem, this rider is staying open and curious. This rider is letting the horse explore the range of asking this question, even when he doesn’t really have to pee.

Speaker1:
So this is an open minded, curious rider. And number three, just like Luna, I can tell that this rider is already transitioning the desire to stop and fully pretend they’re going to pee into other areas, like the cantering uphill and slowing down, or the transition to the walk where he used to build up ahead of steam. These are showing me that there are other areas where there is strong carryover from allowing what other riders might consider to be a problem. And here’s where I see this line up with Luna’s story. Luna really wants to go into the spin, and that’s a genuinely good thing, and I can gently phase out the bigger displays of what we could label problems like her resisting going forward or her desire to dive into the spin. I can gently phase those out without getting rid of the effort or the try. The same thing is true for this rider. This rider can gently phase out the full blown stop, but it’s pretty darn cool that this rider discovered they could allow something like this. And now that cracks open the door into a whole different thought process for a horse that used to be rushing and forward. I would summarize it like this. Take a deeper look at what’s physically going on. Look for the habit pattern that’s happening. In my example, it’s the trot circles before the spin.

Speaker1:
And then look at that thing from your horse’s point of view. What do they see? Are they trying hard to get to the next step. And they’re actually putting in a lot of effort. And that’s a good thing. Like it is here in Luna’s example. Or is this an area where you really do need to change up the habit pattern, where you do really need to disconnect? Part one from part two? Examples of places that I frequently want to disconnect. Step one from step two or places I want to permanently discourage rushing would be things like leading the horse in from the pasture. Maybe I’m going to put them in the stall and grain them, or leading them out to pasture, and they’re very excited about being turned out. I actually fully want to disconnect those things. I want the horse to be patient. Having a horse stand tied is another place where I want to discourage rushing. These are also areas that don’t require a lot of physical effort, so the spin requires a lot of physical effort. But standing tied requires more mental effort, leading quietly to and from stalls and pastures. Even with the anticipation of good things on either end, that requires a lot of patience and maturity. Remember, if you have questions, you can call in and leave a voicemail over on my website. Thanks for listening and I’ll talk to you again in the next episode.

Speaker2:
If you enjoy listening to Stacy’s podcast, please visit Stacy Westfall. Com for articles, videos and tips to help you and your horse succeed.

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