SWS005.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Podcasting from a little cabin on a hill. This is the Westfall podcast. Stacy's goal is simple to teach you to understand why horses do what they do, as well as the action steps for creating clear, confident communication with your horses.
Hello, I'm Stacey Westfall, and I teach people how to understand, enjoy and successfully train their own horses in this first season of the podcast.
I'm discussing issues that frequently affect the riders mind or way of thinking in today's episode. I'm discussing the four stages of competency and how it shows up when you're riding your horse. So I came across an article on dressage today when I was scrolling through their feed on Facebook and it was talking about competency. And after reading the article, I did a Google search and found out that this was a thing that I'd never heard of before. And basically this model for stages of incompetency structures, this idea like this. They say there's four different stages that you move through when you're learning something and the first stage is unconsciously incompetent. The short version of that is you don't know what you don't know. The second stage is conscious incompetency. This is the stage where you become aware that you don't know. The third stage is conscious competency, which is when if you focus and try hard to remember, you are competent and able to perform whatever it is you're doing. And then the fourth stage, the final stage is unconscious competency, which is when you no longer have to do so much work of really trying to be there because it's happening more as an unconscious thing. And to get you quickly into an area that you have probably quite a bit of familiarity with is we can use this really quickly on driving a car. So I helped teach all three of my sons how to drive.
And you can clearly see all of these stages when somebody is learning to drive. So unconsciously incompetent, they begin driving. They don't know what they don't know. And then conscious incompetence, they become aware that they are missing some things, conscious competence when they're really focused and trying hard. They can drive really well and not scare the passenger. And then in the final stage, there are quite a few of you who are adults that are listening that probably occasionally show up at a location like the grocery store or work or friend's house. And you kind of can't remember driving there. That's because you did it with more unconscious competence. And so let's go ahead and apply that to writing. So a lot of times when people get started, they start that beginning that unconsciously incompetent. And so this is that that dreaming stage, it's a very fun time. Usually the best thing about being around people who are in the stage is that they have so much excitement. So even though they might not have a lot of knowledge, they have a lot of excitement. And it's actually as a teacher nowadays when I'm training people, it's kind of a fun stage to be near because there's energy and creativity there. And unfortunately, what I have observed in specific to horseback riding is that a lot of times the difference between being unconsciously incompetent and consciously incompetent is usually a turning point that involves some kind of minor or major injury.
And so it's not quite as fun. And you can distinctly feel, just as I say, that why there would be this shift from the dreaming stage into this this other stage that I've previously called, like the learning stage. And the reason is that in this conscious incompetency stage. So maybe somebody has fallen off a horse for the first time and that was the first time they realized, whoa, something could happen or it could just be, you know, a lot more minor. It could be that they've been, you know, stepped on or kind of pushed or unable to catch the horse. You know, something just unable to catch. There is some little thing that typically happens that brings up this awareness that you don't know enough. And again, I've seen a lot of times where there's some sort of injury that's involved in there. And the good thing about this stage is that you're now aware that you need some help. So if you reach out at this stage and ask for help, it can be a great place. So if you keep studying and you've you've entered conscious incompetency, you can actually keep working. Maybe that's taking riding lessons, maybe that's reading. And you can start to become more and more aware to where you can be more consciously competent. So that might mean let's keep this in one example. Maybe that means that you'd been dreaming of getting a horse. You got the horse.
You've been around the horse for however long and you've noticed the horses pushing on, you getting more and more pushy and you've been stepped on somewhere in that range. You started to look out for more help. And so somewhere during that stage of conscious incompetency, you looked for help and you found somebody and you worked towards becoming consciously competent. So now as long as you're focused, which means maybe you're not talking on the phone while you're leading your horse, maybe your, you know, very clear, as long as you're focused, you're able to now lead your horse and keep your horse out of your space. So that's kind of how that conscious competency, you know, how to do this as long as you're thinking about it. And then what we would love to get to and I think what people often see with when they watch professionals like myself leading a horse is it seems like, yes, I can lead multiple horses all at the same time and be talking on the phone because the amount of work and time that I've put into it has raised my knowledge and my competency level up into that unconsciously competent. So it looks kind of magic. Well, the people that are watching, but it just comes from lots and lots of good practice, which is hopefully what you were getting when you were driving your car, that then led to the point where you could drive safely. And yet this slight feeling of autopilot.
So when I'm leading a group of horses and I'm multitasking by talking on the phone, I've got enough experience that I'm able to do all of these different things and still be able to rely on that unconscious competency. And I have to say, it's really, really cool when you reach that stage because there's a lot of great things there. I think it's important for people to recognize that these stages exist and that if I could draw on a piece of paper for you, I would draw a bell curve. This classic bell curve where at the beginning, when people get started, it's usually a fairly short time that they're in this unconsciously incompetence stage. And then the middle of that bell curve is kind of halfway divided between conscious incompetence and conscious competence. And that is where a lot of people who report feeling stuck when they're working with their horse or their riding. Maybe they're they're trying to advance themselves and they feel stuck. Almost always that is a signal that they are actually probably right where they need to be somewhere in this middle and they're working between this conscious competency and conscious incompetency. And then if you continue onward, there is the opportunity. But but it is a smaller just like on the bell curve leading in was smaller on the way in and leading on the way out is smaller. If you put in all the time in the study, you can get to this unconscious competence stage.
And let me just put more framework around this so you can hear better. So let's say that you've been working and training and you've been riding with somebody for a couple of years. And let's just put it into an example like a lead change. A lead change is a great example of a place where a lot of times people are initially consciously incompetent. They're like, I do not know how to make this happen. And they get instruction on how to move the horse's shoulder, how to keep the forward motion, how to move the horses hip, the timing that's required. And as that has broken down for them, they become more and more aware. And as they become more aware in their mind, they're able to better execute with their body. And so they've got this conscious competence that's happening, but they have to really focus on it. You can't eventually get to the point where it is something that's unconsciously competent, but it's also very real that for a lot of people, there's a long time where there's this high degree of awareness that's needed. And one of the reasons for that is because you may be consciously competent about the need for forward motion during the lead change, because, you know, you don't want your horse to build a slowdown or brake gate or any of the other problems that come from not having an a forward motion during the lead change.
But that's one tiny little piece. So you might be consciously competent with that, but you might not be aware of whether that forward motion is simply the horse moving forward or whether they're getting an upward. We're gonna call it a little bit of a jump. Like if you can imagine cantering on the horse and the horse canters over a log, there's a little bit of an upward motion or a jump. So you might be consciously incompetent about what true forward motion with that upward piece of that forward motion is. So do you see how this gets pretty complicated when we start to move up to higher level things? And on top of that, the lead change involves much more and involves where the rider's moving the horse's shoulder, where the rider's moving, the horses hip, whether that forward motion is there and so many other layers that it's possible for you to be competent in one area and incompetent in another. All inside of one simple maneuver, like a flying lead change. And it's an important thing that you ride with somebody who keeps encouraging you. And it is not false encouragement. If I'm telling you good, that's better. And you report back to me, but it doesn't feel better. And I say, OK, you did a better job of keeping the horse forward, not letting them slow down and not letting them go forward as like running like flat down a race track.
Because that doesn't involve that upward jump that we need to get the elevation for the lead change. So in that moment, the improvement I saw in you was in the fact that you kept the horse forward and moving with that upward motion that was needed. I will grant you that your timing was. When you ask for the horse to move the shoulder and then the hip, it's important because it is very, very real that much of your riding career and handling horses career will be in these areas. And I know this because personally for myself, I have experienced it even as recently as the last few years, which I think would probably surprise some of you. Let's stop and take a look at that. If I stop and think about my body and my training, I've done a lot of things that have led towards being able to do raining and a lot of Western disciplines. So a few years ago when I started taking dressage lessons, I was being asked to ride in a slightly different way than I would have. I ride a lot of my horses two-handed for a lot longer than people would think. And because even though when you show raining, you show one handed most of the time, even though that's true, the training to keep the horse balanced is actually done a lot. two-handed and then transitioned over to one handed cues. But having said all that, if you think about it, I ride right-handed.
So in a way we could actually stop and we could think about my body and my mind as almost being two separate things. My muscle memory is unconsciously competent for a certain set of things that I've trained my body to do. It's kind of on autopilot. So that's why when I go to think about doing a lead change, I don't have to think about what I'm doing with my body anymore because it's doing it on autopilot, like driving a car. But during the dressage lesson, I would be taking the dressage lesson and they would want me. You know, I'm I'm sitting up there nice and straight. I'm holding my hands in front of me and they're asking me to move my horse in and let's just say like a half pass or something like that. So I'm moving the horse across the arena in some kind of a way. And when I would feel a certain resistance in my horse and I would want to help the horse, the way that my body wanted to move was counter intuitive to it. It was against the instruction that the instructor would be giving me because my right hand has been trained to do more than even my left hand. So my left hand rides horses when I ride two handed and when I ride one handed and do advance moves, my left hand does nothing because I'm riding one handed. My right hand contains the muscle memory of both riding colts' two-handed and training horses through a lot of that middle stage stuff.
So not the beginning, not the end, the middle. And it also contains all the muscle memory from riding one handed. And that's the hand that most frequently the dressage instructor would be saying to me, what is going on with your right hand? I would look down at my right hand and I'd say, I'm not sure, because the funny thing is, when you are unconsciously competent, there is a bit of autopilot going on. And what was happening to me was I was concentrating so hard on everything that they were telling me to do that I was not aware that my right hand was kind of thinking, well, if the horse won't move, if I go like this, I know I can get the horse to move. And this was not happening in my brain. This was happening in my body. And every time they pointed it out, it made me laugh because in a way, my right hand was correct because that move would make my horse go there. But it was incorrect because that wasn't the method that they wanted me using. And the whole point of learning dressage was being able to stack more and more methods on top of what I can do, and that will come up in another episode. I love having more than one way to accomplish something. So I want to tell you that little story just because sometimes I think people look at a rider like myself and they think, wow, they've got it all figured out.
Oh, yeah. If we switch disciplines, there's challenge that comes along with it because that very same muscle memory or unconscious competency can actually kind of work against you a little bit there. And I think that might help some of you recognize that that's OK. I mean, I was laughing at my own right hand. That was, you know, doing whatever it was doing on its own. And I thought it was kind of funny. So take-up that, you know, next time you run into that issue during a lesson, because really sometimes when people are in an earlier stage and they're just breaking habits that they had. So maybe you grew up trail riding like I did, and you had habits that you just invented on your own out there in the woods with no instructor. When that happens and you have to go break those habits, the biggest thing is don't start condemning yourself. Don't start beating yourself up mentally because it's not needed and it's not helpful. It's actually gonna be painful and help hold you back. Instead of move you forward. I'm gonna close by reading one excerpt from an email that I got from Ann because I think that it really will help you see where this fits in. Hi, Stacey. This email really hits home. When I was a young girl, I used to volunteer at a local stable.
I wasn't a very good writer, so I spent much time cleaning stalls, lunging horses and hanging around. Now 60 years old, I'm thinking of taking beginning writing classes, consciously incompetent. I'm a little nervous about getting hurt and know that the horse will feel it too. Any recommendations? Thanks. And. Yes. And I think that it is amazing that you are gonna step back up and you're gonna go out here and do this, because that's great for you to continue following something that you've had a passion for such a long time to do. And I think you just need to find an instructor that you can be very open and honest with. You can say I'm a little nervous, I'm a little worried about getting hurt. And I'm thinking that the horse is gonna feel it, too. And if you find the right instructor, they're going to be receiving of that. They're going to say, I can understand why you might be nervous. Here's why this horse is a good candidate. Here are the steps we're going to take that are going to reduce the risk of you getting hurt. And that's when, you know, you've found a riding instructor that is the right fit for you when you feel that you can be that open and that you aren't made fun of for being that open. I admit it's a risk to be that open.
But if you have an instructor that shamed you or makes you feel bad for having this feeling, then that's a great sign that you're in the wrong place. And that was a great thing for you to learn because you can go find a better place.
Guys, thanks so much for joining me today. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider sharing it with a friend. And I'll talk to you on the next episode. Thanks.
If you enjoy listening to Stacie's podcast, please visit Stacy Westfall dot com for articles, videos and tips to help you and your horse succeed.
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This is great. The different stages show up depending which horse I am working with. I do get ‘stuck’ when working the 3 yr old. She has a way of proving my incompetence in certain areas, yet when she responds it also allows the moments of competence in what I am training. 🙂 With the older horse, I tend to go to stage 4 but he also reminds me that I need to back up to stage 3. He keeps me humble.
One of the greatest things about your teaching is that I have become more aware there are others experiencing the same things I do in training so it helps move me past my fear of failure.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge with the added touch of inspiration.
The concept of the 4 stages of competency concepts were so clearly explained that when I am riding I will be able to keep it in mind to help me get unstuck. When you have to break old habits don’t start condemning yourself. Don’t start beating yourself up mentally, because it’s not needed. It’s not helpful. It will hold you back instead of moving you forward. This statement resonated with me.
I was very interested to learn that you are taking dressage lessons. Though dressage is my special interest (and I usually ride “English”) I get a lot out of the things you have to say.
Mary Wanless has a lot to say about the four stages of competence and she brings up a point that is not usually considered. When a riding instructor is living in the land of unconscious competence it is often hard for him/her to access the information a student needs to progress. The student asks “How did you do that?” or “What are you doing?” and the instructor can’t really give the details. The instructor focuses on his/her most recent breakthrough and the student needs information from the time when the instructor had conscience competence of the information in question.
What a great podcast. As usual great and such useful information. This should help alot of people to keep from getting hurt.
Retirement-Finally! A life long dream to ride my horses around the country. My goal is to have safe and reliable trail horses for this endeavor.
Conscious competence leads me to work hard and become aware that trail training can be challenging.
There have been many rides with my seasoned horses riding with unconscious competence.
It would be a dream to master this, but making mistakes is one of the best ways to learn.
My goal from all podcasts is to take something from each one – as we apply and adapt to becoming very competent in each challenge along the way. Competence brings confidence! Thank you! Merry Christmas!
Another great one! Full of great advice, can’t wait for more! Thanks again for doing all of this
Awesome advice! I really love the way you break everything down and also, give examples from your experiences.
Thanks for all that you do to educate the horse community.
Wow! How interesting and very insightful. I feel that we are probably in the stage of conscious competence. Although we may at times fall backwards a bit. I see that we have a lot of work to do to achieve unconscious competence. We have a lot of work to do this summer!
That was so awesome!?
Please keep the podcasts going!
I feel warm and tingly and inspired after listening?
And Anne reminds me of my Mom. You can do it, GO Anne! I don’t know you but I’m soo proud of you!
A great lesson in that we all on the learning continuum and we all start from the same place. You’re so correct that to learn we must go back through the stages to continually add to our knowledge. The riders mind is such a powerful but complex thing that can halt, hinder or progress our horsemanship. These podcasts into the riders mind are amazing and so helpful – thanks Stacy ?
All 5 of these podcasts have been fantastic, Stacy and I’m really looking forward to seeing more of these and more of your Webinars. All 5 have given me a lot to reflect on and “provoking thought” was one of your goals (I believe I saw that in one of your replies) and well… mission successful!
Thank you again for these and doing the giveaway!!!
I feel like I am in the conscious incompetence with my Paso Fino, I show him (at our home shows) in halter class against Quarterhorses… I don’t win, but I do it for the joy of learning and participating.
They added a Gaited class for me, and I learn a lot there too, but I do win (cause we are the only ones in the class!)
Keep it hoof side down!
I love how you break this down and give it words for the different stages. Instead of saying you are “wrong” or “unskilled” you are instead in a learning stage. Thank you so much for what you do and helping me grow and learn.
You say so many things which the world takes for granted. They are simple yet obvious and they make so much sense! There is so much meaning in your podcasts, and we really appreciate the time you take to do this for us… and I’m sure you enjoy it too. You are a thoughtful teacher indeed. merry Christmas!
I haven’t had a lesson in many years. You have inspired me to brush up my skills. Thank you for what you do.
Wow–Did not know their was 4 stages of competency, however it makes sense!! I really want to learn how to do a lead change and I am definitely in the conscious incompetence phase. I had no idea how much goes into such a maneuver. I am thinking about coming out again in 2019, but wondering if I need to get her lope more refined before I do. It is much better but still feels a little out of control on occasions. For instance–when I lope her for the first time she does great! Maybe because she is lazy on the first go around then I may trot for awhile and then ask her again to lope–then she seems to get kinda cranky about it. Not sure what that is all about. I also agree with the advice you gave at the end about finding the right instructor! If you lived closer I would be taking lessons more often for sure. BEST instructor–When I was at your place–there was no negativity, both the horse and rider were not stressed. I felt very comfortable talking with you without being judged, and you took every persons concerns seriously and addressed each one separately.
Hey Stacy! I have realized that I am consciously incompetent about holding my horse accountable and its because I just don’t know what to do at certain times… Can you please do a podcast about this subject where we really go into this? Like for instance, when my horse is jigging on the trail, what do I do as the rider? I don’t mine doing what I should and holding myself accountable, but I don’t know exactly what it best to make my horse be accountable. I do feel I have gotten to certain levels of conscious competence when riding but I am more consciously incompetent and really want to learn the best ways to handle things first, instead of having to go back and having to correct myself. I would be so thankful for your advice!! Keep up the good work Stacy! This is such a generous gift to us all and so much appreciated!!
We learn every day, from everyone … These podcasts were very informative and illuminated the whole range of solutions to possible problems. You always have to learn and never think that you know everything about a horse. It’s a lifelong journey. Thanks!
Excellent!!
I saw Stacy a long time ago on You Tube and was compelled to buy her videos… Love her way with horses and am excited there is no a podcast!!! I subscribed and am eager for each episode. Thank you Stacy!!!! All the way from Australia x
[04:57] Once you enter conscious incompetence, you can start learning and becoming more aware
Good words spoken
When you mention the turning point usually being some kind of injury, it was like a light bulb in my head. So many people chose to find out the hard way that they are in too deep.
Stacy, wow! I listened to all five of your podcast episodes in one day!! I’m really enjoying them! Thank you for sharing your own journey with horses and your humility in admitting struggles you’ve dealt with in your journey. It’s really encouraging! I loved how you encouraged riders not to beat themselves up or condemn themselves when having to break old bad habits. That’s definitely a struggle for me in wanting to “have it all together,” when it comes to riding and training horses. Your encouragement that self condemnation only hinders us and causes us pain was freeing for me. Thank you!
I find it helpful how you break everything down into different stages.
Great information! Thank you!
I remember these four stages from your emails, and they are still good to hear. I think I would consider myself unconsciously competent in most areas, but when fear or nervousness creeps in, I go back to consciously competent and try to control every move. It’s good for me to be put in situations where I just ride and don’t think about it so much at times! Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us.
You are so good at helping us break down our training and knowledge to see where we stand and the steps needed to improve ourselves.
Breaking old habits is the hardest.
I defantly feel like I’m in the middle of 3 and 4. But now after listening to this I feel like there is another side and to keep working through it. Can tell ya how much the’s podcast have helped. Thank you!
I fear I get less patient the older I get. It is helpful to see that I am somewhere around competency level III. A lot of times it feels like I am not getting any better but this makes me feel like I might be moving from different levels of consciousness and not necessarily see it yet.
Thank you! Makes me feel like I am still accomplishing things even though it may not seem like it time after time. I’m somewhere around stage III transitioning into four.
This podcast was a little different for me as i haven’t heard of the levels of competency for horses that is. I believe I am at a level on unconscious competence on some things, consciously competent on a lot, but there are still a lot of things, that I’m consciously incompetent about. And probably more than I realize that I’m still unconsciously incompetent about. But that’s where learning comes in play, we learn new things each and every day about our horses. I am glad i have found a trainer that can help me through my stages. My dream was and still is to go to one of your clinics and take a lesson from you! One day it will happen!
Thanks Stacy for your honesty and frankness, as you too, are on a continual journey of growing. I really appreciate the reminder to find humor vs. criticism when working with my equine partner and also, in daily life.
I’m really enjoying the podcasts! Lots to think about.
This was very interesting. I don’t know a thing about dressage! But now I’m thinking about learning it. These podcasts were all very informative and illuminated a whole range of solutions to possible problems. Thanks!
Thanks for getting into our heads with this. I need to consider some of this more and not take it for granted or just coast. I liked when you mentioned energy and creativity, sad to think we may loose that as we gain competence.
Yes time to stop coasting – for me too great way to say it 🙂
Personally I believe I am at a level on unconscious competence on some things, consciously competent on a lot, but there are still a lot of things, if not most, that I’m consciously incompetent about. And probably more than I realize that I’m still unconsciously incompetent about. Thank goodness for Jesse coming to Asbury to teach us! He is such a blessing and I’ve learned so much from him! He was the first one I heard talk about the level of competencies, and when he did, it’s like a fog was lifted off me as I understood so much more clearly where I am in my horsemanship and learning, and where and how I can improve. These levels on competence can also be applied to horses and their skill levels!
I really appreciated your final comment about, in a sense, holding ourselves accountable for riding with an instructor that can support us wherever we are in our learning stages.
I can see why I am always stuck between 2 and 3…I am always wanting to learn new disciplines and jump around so much I never get to stage 4! The only thing automatic with me is groundwork and mounting! LOL
LOL I hear you there! I’m in same place … but not because of jumping around so much as fear holding me back. Not sure some days if it is fear of failing or fear of succeeding … or fear of fear! Still working that all out. But I have mounting down pat – cause my horse’s fav speed (until we are warmed up) is standing still … and we ALWAYS do groundwork, so we are getting somewhere close to competent.
This is awesome! I can see that these stages can also translate to other areas of my life!
Hi!
I just figured out how to listen to a podcast! So, first time listener.
I have heard of the competency stages from some clinicians I had been following for quite some time. You were right. I looked for help after an injury. It is really helpful to hear different examples and theories on the subject.
Also, podcasts are nice to listen to. I was knitting while listening today.
Thank you!
Elizabeth
I’ve had riding quite explained like this. This is going to make me sit back and evaluate where I am as a rider. Thank you
Is anyone else applying these podcasts to life outside of our horses too?? Stacy you are helping so much more than you’ll ever know by sharing with us. I am feeling empowered & understood. That’s an amazing feeling. You are making me excited about so many things.
Again the biggest take away I have is you’re a safe place to come with questions. Funny part is you’ve helped me see my horses are looking for this type of leadership from me. But so is the rest of the world. Are we providing that kind leadership & do we have mentors to look to?
Thank you for challenging me , leading me & most of all providing a safe environment to grow. Even when it’s clumpsy & we answer the questions wrong. ?
Hi Stacy! Am I wrong to think that a person who THINKS they are at the level of unconscious competence COULD be as dangerous (for lack of a better word) as a person who is at the unconscious incompetence level?
I think I agree with your thinking. The results would be the ‘test’ but yes…I think they could start out in that mind:)
I’ve been incompetent way too long! I love these pod casts they open up a whole new world of horses and I really appreciate it. Not only are you addressing horse issues but mainly riders and too many people blame their horses for their own riding mistake! Great insight!
This is great! It does describe things clearly. I am hovering somewhere between Stage 2 and 3 … with brief moments of Stage 4 (catching, leading, grooming). I read … I listen … I watch … and I try to learn everything I can from every person I see riding. I’m not taking lessons right now … but I do have help from my daughter and her old riding coach. Still working on finding a new riding coach for myself – nobody at barn where we board. But will keep looking and working hard until then.
Stage 4 is where I have been for years but tend to go back to stage 3 when starting new stuff with a horse.
Seeing people that are new to the horse world always make me a little nervous watching them handle their horses. I usually will step in and show them the right way or a better way to do what they are doing and explain what can happen. I do not want to see people get hurt.
I can admit that besides being at stage 4- unconscious competence, I will tend to go back to stage 3-conscious competence which I think everyone does.
oh Lady, I have to listen to this several times, to take it all in. There is a LOT in this episode. my head is spinning.
My thoughts exactly, Jamie. It is deeper than I’ve ever gone before. Stacy is really challenging us!
I think a big part of horsemanship is knowing that you always need to learn and never think you know everything about the horse. It’s a lifelong learning journey
Wow! I hope to not be in stage 1 too much! But stage 2 and 3 are challenges for sure! I do have moments of stage 4 with my first reining horse on our lead changes. They became automatic, almost to the point I barely moved it was almost a mental connection of thinking it! Then I got another horse and it was back to beginning ?