Episode 3: Responsibility and The Stages of Learning

“Learning more doesn't mean you have to give up dreaming, and dreaming is not less than learning. When you get to the place where balance happens, it's a beautiful place.” Stacy Westfall Click To Tweet

The topic of responsibility is going to be a two-part series. In this first part, I’m going to talk about the stages that riders actually go through when they are learning with horses. The three stages riders go through are the dreaming stage, the learning stage, and the balanced stage. Learn how to understand which stage you are in and how to work towards balance.

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“The beauty of dreaming and learning is when you are doing both it's hard to criticize anyone else who is in either of those stages.” Stacy Westfall Click To Tweet

Show Notes

[01:07] The first stage that riders jump into is the dreaming stage. I call this my Disney moments. This is the stage that most people enter horses through. Whether it was cowboy movies or the Black Stallion books.

[02:00] At some point, people transition into the learning stage.

[02:17] The learning stage kicks off a lot of thoughts about how things function. I call this the nuts and bolts.

[02:35] The third and final stage is the balanced stage. This is where someone believes in both of the stages.

[03:22] Learning more doesn’t mean you have to give up dreaming, and dreaming is not less than learning. It’s beautiful when balance happens.

[03:54] In the dreaming stage, you think everything works, and you give all of the responsibility to the horse.

[04:29] In the learning stage, you can get too bogged down in the nuts and the bolts.

[05:39] Thankfully, I found my way to a more balanced phase.

[06:09] I don’t criticize anyone who is dreaming, and I don’t criticize anyone who is learning, but I love it when they can join me in the balanced stage.

[06:56] You can still experience the magic of horses while learning the dynamics of how things work.

[07:50] People who become horse trainers are often in that learner phase. They often move closer and closer to robotic training.

[09:34] If you’re a professional with horses, you can write your own rules.

[09:48] Take a minute and reflect on the stages and see if you are in predominantly one stage or the other. Are you spending more time in one stage or the other? Have you found balance? Do you switch back and forth fairly frequently? Is there an area where you are stuck?

“If you find yourself just hoping that things will get better, you might be spending too much time in the dreaming phase.” Stacy Westfall Click To Tweet

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  1. Gail Davis on December 22, 2018 at 12:09 pm

    Wow. This is eye opening. I thought I was in the balanced phase but I can see that it’s not always the case. My first memories as a child revolved around horses so much so that as soon as I was able to read I devoured anything and everything I could find about horses. I guess that was the Disney phase. Looking back I realize I have bounced back and forth quite a bit. I also see where many of my problems have originated from. Thanks for these podcasts; keep ’em coming!

  2. Rebecca on December 22, 2018 at 9:28 am

    So my problem is I am either completely in the dreamer stage, or completely the nuts and bolts stage, but I haven’t figured out how to be in both at the same time. The nuts and bolts can overwhelm me sometimes as I am trying to transition into reining (have an awesome HDI gelding), and I need to find the balance between the dreams and the nuts and bolts, but it seems my brain only does one at a time! lol Goals…

  3. Heidi on December 21, 2018 at 11:25 pm

    This really helped me to recognize some of the “missing pieces “. Thank you!

  4. Ash on December 21, 2018 at 10:01 pm

    This episode is just bringing pieces together from my last comment! I think my “Riders Mind” issues are that I’ve been stuck too much in the “Disney” phase in the aspect of riding! ?

  5. Katie Brandsema on December 21, 2018 at 2:47 pm

    I’d say I’m planted in the learning stage. I guess that’s not such a bad thing, though! I’m 17, have either owned or leased a horse for the past 4 years, and still have plenty to learn! In the future I’ll always be willing to learn but right now learning is where I want to be and should be firmly planted in.

  6. Philomena on December 21, 2018 at 2:35 pm

    I began my dreaming stage about ten years ago when I watched Stacy perform “Live Like you were Dying” on Roxy. In my learning stage, I learned So Much. But I like the balance stage best. You are right on.

  7. Jennifer Nichols on December 21, 2018 at 2:28 pm

    I seem to be stuck in the learning phase, because it seems like I am always riding at least one or two young horses each year. This will be the last year for a while that I have to start youngsters, which will be good, plus, as I’m cutting back on my herd (and trying to downsize my life), perhaps I can find more times where I can enjoy and dream a bit. At least I took a step out of my normal routine last summer and got to participate in a one day NATRC ride for a change of pace, which was great! I enjoy showing, so perhaps if I get to a place where I’m not as stressed and bogged down with farm duties, I can take some time to dream and shine!

  8. Angie Hempel on December 21, 2018 at 1:29 pm

    I’m 53 and this made me reflect on my journey over the years. I realize now that horses don’t think like us. Their attachment is different. Certainly not like a Disney movie. lol So I guess I am past the dreamer stage. I was joking with a friend last week about our horses, We were discussing that if one of us died, our dogs would be sad and miss us, but our horses would be like, “Oh you are my new human and bringer of food…ok cool.” munch munch “The other human fed me lots of alfalfa, I will be need that from you as well please.”

  9. Judy Shepherd on December 21, 2018 at 12:31 pm

    Did all of us horse crazy girls read all of the Black Stallion books? I’m betting so 🙂

  10. Karen on December 21, 2018 at 11:55 am

    I am fortunate enough to have Fantastic parents who bought me a very kind pony when I was 4. I read Billy and Blaze books as well as The Black Stallion and anything else the library had to offer!
    I had the good fortune to work for a Canadian Horseman (different from someone who knows how to ride) who owned a Polo Ranch, as an adult. He taught me so much about thorobreds from the ground, I can never thank him enough!
    I feel like I rarely leave the learning stage… I board my Fine Gentlemen in a Quarter Horse barn (I have a thoroughbred and a Paso Fino), so I know about the thoroughbreds, and I look for people who have Gaited horse experience, on-line and books.
    When I am on my Paso in a MartiGras parade, I feel like I have found BALANCE! It is a wonderful feeling, I highly recommend! Keep it hoof side down!

  11. Judy Shepherd on December 21, 2018 at 11:47 am

    Thanks, I needed that.

  12. Kaitlyn on December 21, 2018 at 11:17 am

    These phases are all too real to me! It’s enlightening though they way you brought all that out.Thank you!i needed to hear it!im really enjoying these:)

  13. Rebecca on December 21, 2018 at 8:30 am

    This is so applicable to my career as a teacher (of non-horse things). My students come in with passion and dreams and they get bogged down with the learning. Balance is key! Thank you for sharing theee thoughts

  14. Milena from Poland on December 21, 2018 at 4:34 am

    I know that dreams come true, and hope dies last … I and my horse take part in every possible equestrian course under the supervision of qualified trainers … just like in life with people we learn something new every day, just like with horses – everyone the day brings us new experience …

  15. Kristen DEVISSER on December 21, 2018 at 1:40 am


    Dreaming is VERY easy for anyone to do with horses and then once you set a goal with a horse and you can’t reach it quickly, it is very much a set back. You realize there is more work than you ever thought… and now the dream lost all of it’s sparkles and glitter. But what fun would it be to just be handed a dream? If you work hard and gain knowledge through out the experience, you will much more proud to share your dream with others.
    “Good things come from hard work and perseverance!”

  16. Kay Moyers on December 20, 2018 at 11:44 pm

    Ahhhhh I love the dreaming phase, its lots of fun. But Im a little OCD and I love to learn so I want to know everything and can get stunk trying to make something perfect and not move on and keep learning something else. I do go back and forth between the two phases. I still have so much to learn and thanks so much for the podcast as it is helping think about things in a way that I hope I will become more balanced. I can’t wait to see how much fun I can have then!

  17. Liz Visser on December 20, 2018 at 8:57 pm

    I am always in the dreaming stage but always step back to focus to learn more

  18. Julie Corkett on December 20, 2018 at 7:06 pm

    I entered the horse world as an adult, but even as a forty year old woman I had dreams of what my partnership with horses would mean. However, as a specialist in educational psychology, I found myself quickly jumping into the learning phase. What was challenging for me was balancing all of the different philosophies and approaches to training. At one point it became so overwhelming that I shut down. I have since learned to find balance. I have identified realistic goals (dreams) of competing in western dressage. I have learned to filter the noice of different training techniques by using a blended approach. Every trainer/philosophy has a piece of wisdom or technique that is benifcial. I take those gems and apply them to my learning. With this balanced approach I find I am making steady progress in reaching my goals.

  19. Rebekah Rehm on December 20, 2018 at 5:45 pm

    Stacy, I just loved this episode as I can tend to have swings towards either side of the learning and dreaming. Sometimes I get to dream oriented and don’t set realistic goals and sometimes I get to “nuts and bolts” focused and me and the horse quit having fun!! Your quote of, “Learning more doesn’t mean I have to give up dreaming, and dreaming is not less than learning. When you can get to a point where you reach this balance, it’s a beautiful thing,” during the podcast really helped me to gain a more balanced perspective on this subject. Thank you!

  20. Julie Hankins on December 20, 2018 at 5:41 pm

    My husband says I am a professional student because I am always taking the next course or class on animals or something that interests me. The nuts and bolts of things. I am a logical thinker and look at the end result as where the dreaming begins somehow like that is when the magic happens. With most things finding a balance is hard and it takes someone bringing to your attention like you did here to make you take another look and see; do I really have that balance needed to move forward. Sometimes you feel like you are not learning enough to move forward. Thanks for a reminder.

  21. Hannah Reppert on December 20, 2018 at 5:25 pm

    I like how you put the three stages. I agree how some trainers make the horses too robotic. I feel you do need some structure in your training but you also need to be flexible. No two horses are the same and have individual needs. I love to mix things up with them to help keep them engaged and happy!
    I have gotten to the third stage, but I do feel that I get stuck a little more in the second stage.

  22. Katie Beth on December 20, 2018 at 3:29 pm

    Hi Stacy – I’d like to think that I’ve mastered both stages 1 and 2. I have some big dreams, and I have put in a lot of time learning from trainers at clinics, working student, books, online, etc. But I lack the confidence to move into the zone of balance and believe that I am prepared to reach my dreams. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and outlining this for us so neatly!

  23. Sue McWhorter on December 20, 2018 at 3:05 pm

    After 40 some years of owning horses and trail riding, I still have the dreaming stage. The most important thing I have learned is you never stop learning. Sharing the horse experience with others keeps the dream alive.

  24. Taylor K on December 20, 2018 at 2:43 pm

    It is great that we get to relate to you and your situations! Thanks for sharing some of the problems that you have had. I believe that I get caught up dreaming too much and then I have to take a couple days to really think about the goals and the steps needed to accomplish them. Example: I had just assumed that a colt that I have would be ok with trailer loading because he did good last time. I didn’t walk in with a step by step plan and ended with us both lost and confused. So the next couple days I set up step by step exercises to reach the end goal.

  25. Anna Mills on December 20, 2018 at 1:34 pm

    Thank you for saving me from that slope. I was starting to fell that way of the nuts and bolts. It kinda started becoming such a routine that boredom started to set in. No more!!

  26. Elisa on December 20, 2018 at 12:33 pm

    You have such a way of putting together the horse journey. I can see my life going down these two roads and the further along I get the more I see the two roads meeting. Yes, lots of work still to be done. Thank you again for putting this together.

  27. Rochelle on December 20, 2018 at 7:06 am

    The dreamer in me feels that I’m going to drive my sensitive and reactive horse away from me if I go to strong with the nuts and bolts. So I haven’t done anything with him in a year and a half, because I enjoy him coming up to me in pasture for scratches and I don’t want to loose that.

  28. Jan Perkins on December 20, 2018 at 12:48 am

    Yes!! That’s what I am feeling, no magic, just the robotics of learning!! So thinking of how to get the balance – add games? Groundwork? Patterns?

  29. Melanie Gosch on December 19, 2018 at 9:56 pm

    I appreciate your insights on the stages of learning and how we as riders can be in different stages with different skills. You gave me a new way to look at the skills I am working on and where I am at. I am fortunate to help my granddaughter with her new horse. She definitely is still in the dreaming phase but had the horse do some unexpected behaviors so she is now in the consciously incompetent phase in her riding She is somewhat afraid. I will be sharing some of your insights to encourage her and build up the confidence we want her to have with her horse.

  30. Darick Adams on December 19, 2018 at 8:45 pm

    I entered into the world of horses at a very strange time and it actually was through the movie, “Spirit: Stallion of the Cimarron” and it definitely put me in a dreaming stage for… years. After I started really understand what horses were like, my perception of horses changed gradually and more than likely for the better. Primarily because I can definitely see how people’s fantasy perception of horses could easily put them in a position to be hurt, I’m lucky that wasn’t the case for me.
    On the flip side, in this past year, getting more and more into ground work and saddle work and the “nuts and bolts” of training and riding I have felt very stuck, nearly paralyzed with an unwillingness to continue to work with horses because I’m realizing just how much I don’t know, especially in the saddle. It’s still something I struggle with. Running into problems in the saddle, not knowing how to address the problem but also not really having the resources to learn more from professionals.
    I’m putting it aside as best as I can and just trying to enjoy the horses I work with and ride but there’s always an instance when I’m riding where I realize I don’t know what I to do.
    The “magic” concept has also really dwindled away to near nothingness for me. Horses are still something that makes the rest of the world and it’s/my problems fall away. I still love them, love being around them and what I love about them hasn’t changed but I’ve all but lost those fantasy notions I once had…as hard as it is for me to admit that.

  31. Deanna Main on December 19, 2018 at 6:31 pm

    Good podcast! I have to say that I was stuck in the dreamer phase, but realized I needed to shift and work more on the nuts and bolts, if I ever wanted my horse and I to move forward again and get back out on the trail. Guilty though…I still have a tendency to lean more to the dreamer…thanks for the awareness 🙂

  32. Jodie on December 19, 2018 at 6:17 pm

    Woohoo so I can still be a dreamer and be effective with my horses! I just need to balance the two states better. It makes sense not to let go of the dream otherwise you lose your goal you had in the first place but stay dreaming too long and you lose the ability to act, to learn. Thanks for the reminder that you can dream a dream but how to be effective at the same time.

  33. Nancy Thiessen on December 19, 2018 at 6:06 pm

    Thanks for this! That was so helpful, I think I’m aware of these phases but had never put it all together. I definitely go between the two, but probably spend more time in the learning phase. You could definitely expand that conversation sometime if you’re lacking ideas. Which I doubt 🙂

    • Lynn Driscoll on December 19, 2018 at 7:14 pm

      I am really enjoying your podcasts! It is amazing to hear the process of horse ownership through a wonderful and different perspective. One of my greatest admirations of you is …you enjoy trail riding. Trail riding absolutely puts me in “Disney World”on every trail. Three rules when I trail ride, horse comes first (horse safe on trail while we enjoy the scenery) train the entire ride (learning stage) and balance is blending your disciple passion with continuous learning. Thanks for all of your advice!

  34. John M Stackhouse on December 19, 2018 at 5:42 pm

    It hit me all of a sudden that you’re good at teaching! It dawned on me while listening to these podcasts that there’s an element of mutual respect that evolves between horse and rider. I think it happens when we get to that balanced stage that you teach about. Or maybe that’s when you can realize there’s mutual respect between the two of you. Anyway, it’s there for sure when we learn to be balanced with our horse, I believe. It’s as if the horse accepts you as a member of the herd, and accepts that you’re the leader in that herd. Perhaps that’s exactly it. Both horse and rider become in sync! Then, the real rewarding part of horse riding happens, and you’re both having a good time being together. This is what balance means to me, at least. Great stuff in your podcasts! Thanks!

    • Cat on December 22, 2018 at 4:14 pm

      Excellent observation… thanks for sharing

  35. Jordan on December 19, 2018 at 4:31 pm

    I’m definitely more into the learning stage of horses. Sometimes I get too involved into the mechanics and technically of everything that I forget to have fun. I feel like I need to start dreaming a little more. Where I started out in the horse world didn’t give me the benefit of dreaming too much. It was either learn everything I could myself or I was going nowhere. I need to start dreaming of where I want to go with my horses and not just deal with the “facts” of things.

  36. Alex on December 19, 2018 at 3:52 pm

    This is so great, as im right in a transition phase. I’ve been in the dreamer phase aided by a trusty steed who has enabled me to learn even with my Disney princess hat on. I’ve recently fallen twice and our relationship has really shifted. I’ve realized How much responsibility he has been carrying for us, how much more I need to get to know my horse to understand and read him. He’s made it so easy, but I’m ready to take the next step in sharing the responsibility in our relationship. But I’m keeping my dreaming hat on too, quite literally, have gotten my first cowgirl hat in celebration of this right of passage.

  37. Cheryl on December 19, 2018 at 2:39 pm

    I plan on listening to this a few more times. A lot of interesting information. Balance…that’s what I want to strive for! I’m 62 and I definitely used to be more of a dreamer and although I loved horses I didn’t know how to be a good leader because unfortunately the people that I was around when starting out as a kid were the kind that were not leaders, but aggressors and their horses showed it. I always knew there had to be a better way, but I never found it until 18 years ago. The horse that caused me to find the way to leadership died in August after 18 years of loving and learning. He wasn’t horrible…He just knew that I didn’t know how to be a leader, so there was considerable frustration on both our parts. I don’t know who taught who more, but I will always be glad that he set me on this path. He also taught my granddaughters so much. They love your way of teaching! I need them to listen to these podcasts!

  38. Marilyn Krzus on December 19, 2018 at 2:27 pm

    I feel like much learning with horses MUST by nature be mechanical, since horse trainers know how they learn, and every horse pretty much learns the same way.

    That being said, I vary between the dreamer and learning phase. Maybe that IS the balanced phase—I’m not sure. I still have visions in my head that my daughter’s horse will come to know and “love” me, though I never dream I will be Stacy Westfall II, riding bridlelessly. I just dream of the simplest notions—that my daughter’s horse will at least recognize me and be perceptibly happy to see me. I also, strangely, dream of having a horse farm in Montana or Idaho. At 67 I never will, but it’s a fun dream that keeps my interest in horses going.

    And, I learn new tricks of the trade each time I ride. Hopefully, my learning phase will never be over—I think it is a lifelong phase.

    Might this be balance, then? Never being done learning…OR dreaming???

  39. Tina Grossmann on December 19, 2018 at 2:21 pm

    I don’t think there will ever be a day that I don’t sit in the saddle and feel magic. I guess I’ll always be a dreamer but also always learning.

  40. Lacey Swaidner on December 19, 2018 at 2:13 pm

    In my experience, the dream phase is what got me hooked on horses. As I’ve been in the learning phase, I’ve revised my dreams and made my dreams more achievable after learning what I have, and what I continue to learn. I think this is part of finding the balance between the two. As a senior in college at Asbury, majoring in equine and focusing a lot on training, I do think that I have been in the learning stage more than dreaming, but there is still both. It is easy to get burned out in the learning phase, because in my experience, the more I learn and the more I know, the more I know that I don’t know. It can feel like a never ending cycle, but that does always leave room for improvement. I also believe that as I learn, my dreams do evolve to become more logical and realistic, but also as I learn, I’m gaining the tools to make my dream a reality and that is what keeps me (somewhat) balanced between the two phases, keeping that end goal or dream in mind, and always progressing towards it.

  41. Marsha Hughes-Gay on December 19, 2018 at 1:42 pm

    I a great planner and organizer…it’s the execution I have problems with. I have the trailer packed and reader (from the tack, to extra things I might need, the first aid kits for horses and humans, it’s all clean) I’ve got the farrier here regularly, the vet, the horses are groomed, they have great hay and supplements, I’ve researched the local trails, the costs, how to get bridle tags. But I NEVER GET OUT OF THE PASTURE. The fear, the limits I’ve set for myself all plays into the problems I’m having. I watch others at clinics, read books, watch videos, and listen to podcasts (wink wink). Im not a trainer, I don’t want to be a trainer. At times I’m in information overload. I need to K I S S. (keep it simple sweetie)

  42. Wendy on December 19, 2018 at 1:30 pm

    I have a coming 5 yr old that I have had since he was 5 months. My busy life has kept me from getting him trained. He has not had to do anything except go to our county fair and show halter. He has huge tantrums if I try and work with him, like just lunge, he starts with stomping his feet then to bolting, rearing, throws his head, trying to run me over. So I’m not getting anywhere with him!

  43. Vicki Conrad on December 19, 2018 at 1:02 pm

    I do switch back and forth between the 3 stages. I still dream (picture what I wan to be doing with my horse). Then I start my learning stage so I can teach the nuts and bolts to the horse and finally it all comes together in the balanced stage. It feels so good to reach this stage!!!

  44. patricia woodruff on December 19, 2018 at 12:57 pm

    I believe this blog helps me to set true goals for myself and face the reality that the horse needs to also be taught. I was stuck into that phase at one time when I assumed that the horse “already knew “ what to do but that’s not the case. I found outbthevhard way as my horse pulled his tie chain backwards and he pulled the entire pole out of the ground and ran with it still attached into a wooded area then he finally stopped when the pole became jammed between two trees! Thanks so much for making me Re-Think and step back and not assume the horse “knows” what to do.

  45. lisa laroe on December 19, 2018 at 12:51 pm

    Stage 3 is what we are beginning to see glimpse of in our time with our boy.

  46. Michaela Isak on December 19, 2018 at 12:44 pm

    I feel this podcast was my favorite. I feel i am stuck in the dreaming stage and the learning stage (so the balanced stage to say the least.) Some days i dream of where we could be and what we can be and other days i am stuck on training and what to do next, More or so i am more in the nuts and bolts stage. I have a coming 9 year old gelding who was started late and is a rather slow learner which sometimes can be very frustrating but also has given me a lot of patience. We butt heads with each other but we also have a strong bond and relationship with each other so the nuts and bolts actually sometimes become dreams because you work so hard to get where you want to be you start dreaming of what amazing things you can do!

  47. Tamra WILLIAMSON on December 19, 2018 at 12:01 pm

    I love dreaming of my next goal with my horse. I try to learn all I can to help her understand our next lesson together.

  48. Jamie on December 19, 2018 at 11:55 am

    It is very difficult to swim upstream against some industry “standards” , some of the acceptable techniques that are popular are things I would never subject my horse to.

  49. Dawn on December 17, 2018 at 2:50 pm

    You nailed it!! As you know I’m a dreamer & have worried about becoming a nuts & bolts horse Mom. My horses are magical to me & I never want them to become a “burden”. ? However, I recognize if I want to truly be a good horse mom, I need to challenge myself to understand the nuts & bolts part too. You are helping me see the nuts & bolts can be magical too ?. So I see the magic in the nuts & bolts side now because of you. ?
    I am so glad you shed light on trainers seemingly not liking horses. That is what shut me down when I tried to reach out for help before. They didn’t seem to like horses or people! ? So I could not justify to pay someone to insult my horse & I , my dreams … then leave feeling beaten up, drained , defeated & broke. ??
    The babies & I thank you so much!!
    As you also know it’s hard for me to type without my smiley & silly faces so insert as you see fit if they didn’t show up. Lol
    I guess I’m in the nutty dreamer category willing to embrace some nuts & bolts! ??

  50. Karen Bockus on December 17, 2018 at 11:47 am

    Dear Stacy, I just finished listening to your third podcast, and it’s brilliant. I’m not a trainer, I’m a senior rider who like your podcast has just in the last year found myself in stage three, but still have lots of nuts and bolts to work on with my mare. I think one thing that was missing was acceptance of your abilities and of your horses. I’ve worked with a professional for a number of years and in the last couple of years have accepted 1. I’m older, my reflexes are slower, my back hurts way more than it ever did…so on and so forth.
    I watched another pro work my horse last summer and realized she is way better trained than I ever imagined. Will I ever be able to draw out that level from her, or will my current trainer, the answer is NO, and I’m okay with that. Because I can dream that someday just maybe I will be able to draw that extra out,I can learn, because there is always so much to learn, but I’m balanced, and have never enjoyed my horse more in my life.
    Thank you for your wonderful words of wisdom, I sat having my tea laughing and seeing myself!

    • Stacy Westfall on December 17, 2018 at 12:27 pm

      Karen- Thank you for writing! What you are sharing about acceptance is so true. We ALL have limits, horse and people, and when we accept that idea we relax…and then something wonderful can often happen. We can get creative and find new ways to use the strengths we do have. The older I get the better I get at working things out…in my HEAD before I use my body.
      So glad you are enjoying the process, some tea, and a laugh:)

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