SWS003.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Podcasting from a little cabin on a hill. This is the Westfall podcast. Stacy's goal is simple to teach you to understand why horses do what they do, as well as the action steps for creating clear, confident communication with your horses.
I'm Stacey Westfall, and I teach people how to understand, enjoy and successfully train their own horses in this first season of the podcast. I'm going to be discussing issues that frequently affect the riders thinking in today's podcast, I'm going to focus on discussing the idea of responsibility. But I'm gonna make this into a two part series. And in this first part, I want to talk about the stages that I actually see riders go through when they are learning with horses. And again, we're just going to stay in the riders mind. And the first stage that I tend to see riders jump into is the dreaming stage. And in the dreaming stage, this is where as riders, whether we picture ourselves at any age, there's this very I call it when I refer to it myself. I call it my my Disney moments. And so there is this very Disney type feeling to some of my thoughts around the streaming stage. And this is a stage that most people enter horses through and that could be cowboy movies. And you were dreaming about being a cowboy or that could be watching Spirit too many times on a loop and wanting to jump into that. Or for me, it was the Black Stallion books. But either way, there's this dreaming stage. And then at some point, people often transition into the learning stage. Unfortunately, a lot of times people transition from dreaming to learning after some kind of a setback and either which way, however they end up there.
This learning phase generally kicks off a lot of thoughts about how this functions. So I call it the nuts and bolts of the relationship stuff. And so it's the nuts and bolts of move the hip here. And this causes this to happen. And if we want to get a lead change, then the shoulder goes over here. It doesn't sound anything like a Disney movie. And the third and final stage that I see is this kind of balanced stage. So we've got dreaming, learning and then balancing. And then this balancing stage, what I see is someone who is daring to believe in both of the stages. You'll notice that when I was talking about the dreaming stage, I said, I picture myself and call it the Disney stage because I still want to live with one foot in that magical world, because that's what I enjoy. And I definitely want another piece of me to be in that nuts and bolts. How do things work? And these are mental constructs that I'm I'm giving you here. And I think that if you can get to this third stage where you can say learning more doesn't mean to have to give up dreaming and dreaming is not less than learning when you can get to this point where this balancing thing happens.
It's a beautiful place because it's going to affect the responsibility that everybody has. So typically, when you're in the dreaming stage, if I rewind to myself as a kid, I thought it just happen. I thought it just worked because I was actually without the words, giving all the responsibility to the horse. And what happens a lot of times with that is that people get stuck feeling because they keep giving the horse all the responsibility and then they wonder why the horse makes choices that are unsafe or undesirable over and over again. And that's a lot of times, because we're just hoping that the horse will come up with this idea that we want and they just don't think quite like spirited or the black stallion. And so in that dreaming stage, you can kind of get that little bit of a stuck feeling there now in the learning stage. There can actually get to the point where there's too much of the nuts and bolts. And this is where I think a lot of times when people leave the horse industry, either they leave because they were in the dreaming stage and then they got hurt and that ended the dream and they didn't move to learning. Or you get people that are in the learning stage. And I know I personally went through in the middle of this learning stage where and that's why I say nuts and bolts.
Now, it got so nuts and bolts specific that I didn't believe there was any magic left anymore. This little teeny, tiny, itty bitty corner of me did believe that there was still that magic to the point where I was ready to, like, quit becoming a professional horse trainer and try to figure out how I could get back to that that magic I was feeling. But long story short, it was this nuts and bolts of the learning phase that was kind of getting me down because it was so. So structured more like machinery, which is also why sometimes I'll say that trainers will make horses be robotic, because that was my view of how this nuts and bolts and robotic system was working. And thankfully, I found my way through a whole series of events to discovering this more balanced phase, which is where someone can actually believe in both dreaming and in learning. And the beauty of that is that if you're doing both, it's really difficult for you to criticize somebody who's in either one of the stages. So I do not criticize people who are dreaming and I do not criticize people who are learning. And I would love if they could join me and be doing both because it's such a beautiful thing. And when I think about how this affects people when they're with their horses in that very early stage, when I was in the dreaming stage, predominantly, my mom was trying to teach me some stuff.
So I was still a learner, but I was really dreaming. There were a lot of mistakes that I made because I just figured guest assumes that the horse would just magically fill in that that blank. So looking back, my recommendation is if you find yourself just hoping that things would get better, that's a sign that you might be spending a little bit too much time in the dreaming phase. And if when I moved to that next phase, the learning phase, if you find yourself getting a little bit bogged down, I'm wondering if there is really this magic that you thought you had experienced at one point. You did. I will tell you, you did. And you can experience that magic when you're around the horses sitting in a movie theater or reading a book like The Black Stallion. And then you can experience it when you go and you'll be around them. But you also will end up experiencing the fact that there is stuff you need to learn about how their herd dynamics work and what they look at has responsibility or what they look at as leadership. And so when you jump into that, don't get so lost in the weeds that you forget that you are still on the path of the dreamer also.
And then this is kind of an interesting thing, because a lot of times the people who become horse trainers are very often in that learner phase and probably learner only phase. A lot of times. And that can become a bit of a frustrating stage. That's what I experienced, was that as a trainer who was trying to accomplish these goals for the owners, what happened was I ended up feeling more like I just had to be able to. I had to cut out all the dreaming phase of it and I just had to make it very structured. And it lost some of that that that dreaming stuff. And I remember a long, long time ago when I was in college and I was dating my husband, Jesse, and I said to him, why would somebody start training horses if they don't even like them? Because coming from Maine and not having seen the industry, it was kind of like I jumped straight in and I was like, there appear to be a lot of professional horse trainers that don't like horses. And he said, well, they didn't start like that. And I think it's a brilliant observation because it's true. I'm sure at some point they started in some kind of the dreaming phase and then they moved into this phase that I'm calling the learner phase. But they actually moved more and more and more towards just this robotic type of a training.
And so there was a real pressure there as a professional trainer to move towards this. You know, this is just like a it's an assembly line. It's a mechanical type of a thing. And so if you're a professional with horses and you're experiencing any of that. Know that what you're experiencing is something that other people experience. But you don't have to accept it. You can actually write your own rules. So what I'd like you to do as an activity at the end of this podcast is just take a minute and reflect on the stages and see, are you in predominately one stage or the other? Are you spending more time in one of those or the other? If you're if you're doing both, if you're in that balancing stage? Are you switching back and forth fairly frequently or is there an area where you're stuck? Because I also see that you can get stuck in certain areas where your not moving forward because maybe you're spending a little bit too much time. Maybe you're really good with one thing with the horse, but not so good with the other because you're going to get stuck in that dream mode. Or maybe you're getting disheartened because you're stuck in that learning nuts and bolts phase and you're getting a little bit burned out on that.
So stop and reflect. And if you want to share or read what other people are experiencing, jump over to Stacey West Volcom and you will find the podcasts show notes for this episode. Thank you.
If you enjoy listening to Stacie's podcast, please visit Stacy Westfall dot com for articles, videos and tips to help you and your horse succeed.
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This was an eye-opening podcast (well, they all are so far, but this one really hit home). I’m stuck in the nuts & bolts (learning) with a touch of dreamer (aka hope) left. I feel like I don’t have anyone to turn to to help me learn the nuts & bolts so I’m trying to learn via videos (such as you, Warwick Schiller, Julie Goodnight). While these are great tools (thank you!!!), they still leave me questioning what I’m doing right/wrong so I can’t quite move forward. I spend a lot of time in tears, doubting myself and wondering what in the world made me think I could enter the horse world. I’m hyper-concerned about how animals feel, being fair and reasonable with them; I want to be my horse’s friend/partner not just the boss. I look forward to finding more nuggets of wisdom/insight as I continue to listen to your podcast. Thank you!
In November I started riding again after 25 years, following a back injury. I’ve recently commenced lessons and the reality hit me of how much I needed to get into the learning. I have 3 green horses and need to keep in the learning and not the dreaming. You make a great point about the dreaming and the learning, and I know I still have so much to learn. Thank you for discussing this topic its a great reality check for riders, and helping us to be aware, and strive for the balance. 🙂
I’m fully in the learning stage as a new trainer, but I also bounce back to the dreaming stage when I see something I want to do or start something new with the horse I am training. I always dream that it would work perfectly the first time, then go through the learning process of how to really perfect it. Sometimes I get so overwhelmed or just straight up mad when I can not understand what I’m doing wrong. When I decide to just step back and “dream” about it and learn with a fresh view. I find the balance again in my mind I usually get whatever it is right off the bat.
The dreaming phase.. I honestly not stuck there. I wish I could do this or that, but Im being realistic here- that will not happen ha! I am ALWAYS learning. I learn no matter what horse Im on, what Im working, or who I’m with. I will always be in the learning phase. That is okay with me. Life is about lessons, horses teach you lessons, you learn from others and put those lessons to use. I may have a dreaming phase but it gets swiped away. I guess ai could be in the balance phase once in awhile. I will say though that just having my mare around is a dream, who teaches good lessons.
I think I used to be more in the dreaming phase before I really started getting into horses and before I learned how much I didn’t know. But lately, I have been getting stuck in the learning phase because I get overwhelmed that there is so much I don’t know and can’t do yet. But I am going to work on being in the balanced phase.
I had a wonderful old gelding who allowed me to stay in the dreaming stage. Sadly he passed away and I am now more seriously in the learning stage with my new horse. I do remind myself that this is a hobby for me and I need to make it fun and interesting for me and my horse.
I have great leadership skills when it comes to being positive and giving thanks and credit. I have weak leadership skills in taking charge.
I think in the dreaming phase I need to write down my dreams so I can learn techniques to achieve them
I am definitely in the learning stage. Learning something new that involves horses is never wasted. My husband and I enjoy learning training methods from many clinicians and instructors so that we can grow to become better horseman. Not every horse fits perfectly with just one clinician and knowing when to use a different approach is so valuable. Learning is also embracing constructive criticism. Thank you Stacy for another great podcast.
I really enjoyed listening to this. It has so much truth in it! My dreaming stage started when I was young, reading all the horse books and watching all the movies I could get my hands on. My favorite was The Black Stallion movie, especially the beach ride scene.
I feel like I am borderline between the learning and the balanced stage. I seem to kind of jump between the two, but I’m slowly making my way to the third stage!
Thank you for this podcast!
-Bekah
Definitely a Dreamer! I started with the Throroughbred series and Black Beauty. It was difficult to learn that there was a lot more work behind the scenes. And also the heartbreak from a setback and also the jubilation from an “a-ha” moment.
Stacy, you do a very good job of breaking things down into understandable elements. I remember very well the dreamer stage, I too had the Black Stallion books to thank for that. I remember getting frustrated with riding lessons later on when the horse I was riding always put up a good fight to return to the barn prematurely. I remember thinking “this isn’t fun anymore”. Then came the years of working under a horse trainer and becoming fixated on that learning stage and how everything worked. I started to forget why I was doing the “horse thing”. I recently returned to school to finish my bachelor degree. I took a course in memoir writing and found myself writing about my younger self and the dreamer period in my life. That course unintentionally ignited that spark of magic once more and I am learning how to find my balance. It’s funny how things work out sometimes.
Wow! Another great podcast! I followed a similar path in dreaming as a kid reading Black Beauty and the Black Stallion from the school library. Then as a teen working on a Belgian Draft horse operation I began to understand that there is a lot more to understanding horses than the books indicated. In 2002, we were finally able to own a couple of horses. It became very clear to me that to stay safe and to fully enjoy our horses, the “nuts and bolts” become EXTREMELY important. The dream can become a total nightmare without them. My 11 year old horse crazy granddaughter is totally stuck in the the dreaming phase and not so concerned about the nuts and bolts. My challenge is to lead her to that beautiful balanced place. I will be sharing this podcast with her today. Merry Christmas Stacy to you and your family and thank you for these podcasts.
Moving into the learning g stage. It takes time, an open mind, hard work and dedication.
I think I am mostly in the dreamer phase. I need to get to the learner phase more often and build from there. I also believe I need to read and understand and exucute cues to make sure my horses understand what I am asking for.
I would like to touch on what Karen said. I have accepted that I may not get to that high level and neither will my horse because one she is 18 now and I am also getting older and worry a little more than I used to about what “could” happen” I used to be daring when I was younger and did not have a care in the world–Didn’t we all. LOL What I have accepted is that there is a lot to learn and I am having fun doing it. I think that is what matters to me the most. There are two things I still want to accomplish and that is learning how to do a lead change and perfect her lope. I rode in a trail class last year for the first time and I was proud of my accomplishments and my horse. I was very proud of her and proud of myself because I know I have worked I also agree with what you said Stacy–I am also getting better at working things out in my head before I use my body. It is very rewarding when you think and plan about how to do something with your horse and it WORKS!!
I strive to learn something every day. I feel that the more I can learn the better off I will be.
Never too old to learn.
Another great podcast Stacy, you explain things very well and clearly. I dream of competing in the Australian Ranch Horse events – I’m learning how to do that, very slowly and it may take a few years before I’m ready, no not seeking perfection just ability and confidence. I was interested in the area where you talk about robotic trainers. Is it possible that these trainers become disheartened by people and not the horse or the nuts and bolts of training. My close friend is an Instructor and will carry out some training but unfortunately due to health reasons she has cut back. She has the skill and ability to handle different situations with horses which result in fantastic outcomes and she loves that but has been disheartened by people. I do know for a fact though that she is constantly learning but also dreams of achieving more herself and I have witnessed those balanced moments she has had with her horses and the absolute thrill of that moment. Even I have had those balanced moments with my young horse that you just want to bottle up and keep forever.
Stacy I really appreciate you taking the time to cover this topic. I am an instructor and have personally been stuck in one stage and have seen other equestrian stuck in one stage. It can really be such a frustrating thing to have to deal with, especially when things get so focused on the nuts and bolts that it can be very easy for one to walk away from something that once made them happy. I have been in that position and have had rides where I’ve take my boots and spurs off with the intention of never putting them back on
I completely agrer that it’s so important to find a balance to keep that passion alive but to never stop learning as there is always something new to be learned especially in the horse world! I am glad to say that even though my journey in the equestrian world and my flip flop through the stages, I have found my balance. I have My passion and dreams back but I am always trying to learn something new to benefit not only my horses and myself but my students as well! I want them to pursue their dreams but to remember that dreams don’t work if you don’t! Success comes with life long learning but keeping the dreams and passion alive. Great topic to cover, it really helped me personally reflect on myself and what I have overcome to be where I am today! Thank you Stacy, have a wonderful holiday with both your two and four footed family members!
I really like this subject, it’s nice to hear most non-pros switch back and forth between the stages. I think the dreamer phase needs to be there for motivation to kick start and keep up in the learning phase. It’s easy to get into Disney mode after you’ve had a really good session with your horse… But if you had that really good session, that means you paid attention to your learning phase!
I am not a horse trainer, just someone who has always loved horses. When I was older and could afford my first horse I bought one that was not a good match, he made me very unsure of my riding capability. After I finally thought I needed to get a new horse I bought a 2 year old and he only had 30 days,( you know where this is going) After breaking my leg I knew if I was going to continue my Disney stage I need to learn and build my confidence and a relationship with my horse. I thank every day for the trainers who help us horse owners grow. I am a lot older now and I will always look for more information and guidance. Thank you Stacy!
After taking lessons for about a year and a half, I switched to the learner phase. While I love the mechanics and techniques of riding, I have to remind myself that riding is FUN! It seems like certain horses bring out the dreamer stage in me and others bring out the learner stage. I’ve had moments when I’ve balanced the two stages, like when my horse and I executed a perfect side-pass for the first time, and that is truly magical!
A lot of people get started with the dreamer phase but dont realize they have to put in some work to get to the learning stage. The learning stage isn’t easy to master when you keep looking at the dreamer phase. You need a good balance of both to be able to keep enjoying horses and become closer to your horse.
I am glad you broke this down into 2 parts. As a trainer it is easy to see how I got there with my analytical side. But I sure do miss that Disney magic.
Sometimes as the trainer, I think the magic is gone and it is all repetition. Then something happens like a student in trouble on trail, a loose calf or a loose horse. Then my horse responds to the lightest pressure, is instantly and fully engaged as we respond as a well oiled team to master the moment. I love that feeling and that oneness.
I know we need more balance and would like you to cover that more.
Great topic to think about, Stacy. When I evaluate my own dreamer verse Lerner status, I admit that I jump back and forth fairly frequently. It seems to depend upon outside factors in my life, those that don’t even really have to deal with my horse wife, but I take to the barn with me. Something to think about for sure!
I truly enjoyed this one, as I see the stages I have personally been through, especially the stage of imbalance in every aspect of my life till I recognized and confronted “IT”. Years of training, teaching, coaching, competing… mostly given away because of early learned habits of other peoples opinions matter…FIRST. It’s the glue so many get stuck with in turning out work, horses, giving and caring in the mistake of that’s what one must do to be allowed to survive.
Recognizing my own personal ability to connect with my own sense of amazing ability that created the talented horses and people I assisted. Actually came from learning to believe and have faith in myself. To stop long enough to really learn who I am and what it is I desire for me… my light of belief in myself attracts those who are seeking to be more of their true selves. So entirely found in each of your podcast, post and emails. Thank you! “.”
You are so right it can be so easy to get down until you find the balance. The balance is really great place to be. Thank you for these podcasts.
I’m not sure if I’m in either stage. When I’m not riding, I’m dreaming of when I can own my own place, my own stables, my own horses. Maybe even my own hippotherapy center. I’ll be the horsewoman I’ve always dreamed of. But until then I’m riding three different horses… learning and trying to grow. I don’t know half as much as I think I should… I have so much to learn. But I’m learning and trying everyday. It’s a process but I love it. One day, maybe I’ll be right where I wish to be.
You are so correct. I know I am a dreamer and when you said that you just expect a horse to know it is so true. I have to admit when things go wrong that it was me who doesn’t know how to communicate and I need more nuts and bolts to truly get what I desire. I leaned it the hard way with pain from falling to get more training for us both.