SWS006.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Podcasting from a little cabin on a hill. This is Stacy Westfall podcast. Stacy's goal is simple to teach you to understand why horses do what they do, as well as the action steps for creating clear, confident communication with your horses.
Hello, I'm Stacey Westfall, and I teach people how to understand, enjoy and successfully train their own horses in this first season of the podcast. I'm discussing issues that frequently impact the way the rider thinks. In today's episode, I'm discussing the idea that writers do not follow the same path when learning that the horse does and why it's important for writers to understand this. So here's the way that I look at it when I look at the path that a horse follows when I'm training it. It's pretty straightforward and I typically say that it travels from kindergarten to college or wherever that horses end point is. So, for example, Roxy in the Bareback Bridle is maybe she had her master's degree, but any which way when I start training a horse, especially if I get them when they're young, let's just say, you know, I raised them or I start them as a two year old, three year old. As they go up through they start in kindergarten, they learn kindergarten stuff. And that straight line goes all the way up through their career. In a straight line where I run into issues when I'm teaching people is that most riders don't understand because really I don't think it's talked about that much. The rider does not follow the same path that the horse does. Let me explain. When the horse is in kindergarten, first grade. Second grade. If you read my book that I wrote with Horse and Rider, that's called Smart Start, I said in Smart Start that the safety line, which is where the horses are kind of safe to get on and ride around on, is somewhere, in my opinion, around third grade.
So all the stuff that I was doing for groundwork, basic groundwork was before that. And then I get on and there's kind of this, you know, you get on, you can ride. But how safe are they? Well, they're not more advanced than the third grade. They're not sixth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade. And the higher up they go, the generally more solid and safe they are. If you keep that in mind, what this means is that in my world, if I were able to say where a rider should start learning, I would purposely put the rider onto a horse that was in high school. And the reason I would do that is pretty straightforward, which is just straight up safety. So if I take the rider that's real green and put them with a horse that doesn't know. Then the odds of things going bad are much higher. So what this causes for a problem, though, is that if I start a rider on a horse that's in high school. And so when the horse is in high school, that means they steer pretty good. They have a pretty decent idea of kind of how to nectarine around, maybe not with excellence, like being at the highest level, Rainer.
But you can get around neck graining, you can walk, trot, canter safely. Stop easy. They're generally easy to move around. And so the problem is that this rider, if you look at that line that the horse was on from kindergarten to college, that riders plunked down there in the high school level. So what people don't understand about that, because right now it still sounds real easy to understand. But the side effect of this is that people that are starting out with a horse, this in high school almost end up feeling like they are lacking on both ends. So what that what I mean by that is they might have a horse that they can stop and start and steer and do the stiffer things, but they don't truly have an understanding of the base work that went into creating the colt starting phases. Or they don't truly have an understanding of how the horse got to the point of high school. They understand that they've got this high school horse. They also don't fully understand like how to progressed further on. So they don't know how to take this high school horse to college or beyond. The reason I want to give this illustration is because it's okay if you're in that spot, because another way that we can look at it is this when you started learning to drive a car, I would have put you into a nice, simple, solid car. I wouldn't have put you in a Ferrari and I wouldn't have put you in something that didn't have brakes.
So when you were learning to drive a car, we used the same theory, gave you a nice functional, not over the top. Hopefully not, you know, dangerous to drive car and you learn how to drive the car. And for some people, they stayed driving that one car for other people. Maybe they want to move up to more and more performance cars for other people. Maybe they wanted to go to school and become a mechanic and learn how some of these different parts of the car worked. And maybe they even ended up to where they could build their own car from scratch. And so. The important thing to recognize is that they still started in the middle and with the car analogy, there is not a lot of frustration. Whether you go up or down. Obviously, the relationship between horse is much more dynamic than the relationship between the car. Maybe I should speak for myself. My relationship with my horse is much more dynamic than my relationship with my car. So now that we've kind of got this general understanding, I'm going to read several things that have come into me through email and comments left on the blog. And there are just some things that I pulled out to illustrate this. So this person says a frustration is not knowing what to do next. Another person says a frustration is knowing when enough repetition is enough.
Another frustration from another person, when to back off and when to push through and ask for more. And my final one, not knowing when to push an exercise to the next level, I tend to get good at a simple lead change and keep doing it. Instead of graduating to a real flying change, for example, or I get good at turning on the hindquarters but don't progress to a spin. And then she confesses, OK, that's a frustration with myself, not my horse. But either way, I'm stuck. L-O-L, I think if you listen to what was going on in all of these things is that if you keep this in mind that they're in the middle. Not knowing what to do next makes sense. Not knowing when enough repetition is enough. That makes sense because, you know, they didn't build the horse up to the point where they're at. If they had built from scratch because maybe this is the 20th horse they've owned, they actually would know a lot more about what amount of repetition is enough because that's something you gain from experience. When to back off and when to push through again, this is classic of somebody starting in the middle, not really understanding, you know, how come the car doesn't run? What's that squeaky noise? What's going on there? And so if you just can accept that there is this middle and that's where most people start. I hope a lot of people start there.
Then what you can do is you can actually kind of let yourself off the hook so you don't have to feel so frustrated because there's a difference between feeling frustrated and understanding that you're in a certain stage. Let me talk about this in a slightly different angle just to make sure that everybody listening kind of understands what I'm saying. In another way, you could compare this to a teacher in a classroom. So if it is a new teacher's first year in the classroom, they've been to school, they've studied this progression that the students would make. There's a kind of already have an idea of what this path is that the students are on, but they still are gonna go in there and feel a little bit lost at times. They're still going to have to try to answer all the same questions, not knowing what to do next. Knowing when enough repetition is enough. Knowing when to back off or when to push through in all of these things are actually things that we deal with in our human relationships or in this example of a teacher in a classroom. And again and again, something that's gonna come up is when you find yourself in that situation, you need to find more experienced people to mentor you, because a lot of the times that's all I'm saying over and over again is knowing when to push through or ask for more or knowing when enough is enough is something that comes from experience in the fastest way.
To get that experience without having to live through all of it personally yourself is to go find somebody to study with. Again, just remember that having any of these doubts or questions. Don't let yourself use words like stupid or any other judgmental things when you recognize you're in a certain stage of training. That's all you need to do is recognize it. And I'll bet most of you out there, if you looked at a horse in training, you watched a horse that was doing something and the horse was having problems. Most of the time you wouldn't judge the horse. You're just like, oh, well, that one needs a little more training or oh, that one doesn't understand that lesson. And so everyone, horse rider, we pass through stages when we're learning. And that's just part of life. I know that personally, when I took up mountains shooting, I made the comment to a bunch of the different members because I was trying to figure out what guns to buy to pop balloons with. So I'm trying and holding these different guns. And I made the mistake of saying that they were all too big for my hands. Well, I ended up getting some that were the smallest ones they made and I still said they were too big. But after months of practicing, when I'd gained the strength and muscle memory to hold them correctly.
Suddenly they worked. And there is still a particular club member to this day that every time he sees me, he asks me if my hands are still growing because my hands never had to grow. I just needed to get the strength and the muscle memory and the practice, the experience to know how to hold these correctly. And then if you just want a good laugh, the announcer used to tease me because he knew me in both worlds and he said to me as I ran home and I'd missed a bunch of balloons during the match, and he said as I finished. And yes, that was Stacy Westfall of Westfall horsemanship, not Westfall shooting. So have some fun with this. There should not be any shame in any stage of learning, even if you're supposed to pop eight balloons and you can't get it done. 0 8. No, 10. Maybe that's my problem. I never even could count. I hope that this understanding of the rider's path and the horses path will help a lot of your listeners, because a lot of times I see people who are just getting started and they have this idea that they want to understand things right from the beginning. And this is where that kind of classic idea of people considering buying a young horse for their young child so that they can both learn together comes from and in the horse industry. There is a saying that goes green on green, makes black and blue, because green is a word that we use in the horse industry to mean lack of experience.
And so green on green wood being green horse lacking experience, green rider lacking experience makes black and blue. Most of us remember what black and blue represents. We want to avoid that and it's naturally avoided if you look at that line as going from kindergarten to college. And I'm encouraging you to start with a horse that is in high school. Don't do the green and green thing. It does typically end with a lot of black and blue. A lot of other listeners might be experiencing frustration in how to advance something because you might feel like you're trying to advance your horse in one area like, let's say, steering and nec raining. But you're thinking, boy, this has been going along well. But all of a sudden over here, I've got an issue trailer loading and I'm not sure how to handle this issue with trailer loading, even though I'm actually working on some more advanced things over here that are leading me towards spinning. It's possible for that to be happening because you may be working both ends of that learning spectrum. If you've started in high school, there might be areas that you're going to learn more about, the more fundamental basic stuff which would fall maybe into that like trailer loading can fall into that category. And you might also be working at that on the more advanced stuff which could be advancing your staring into spins or working on, you know, leg yields or any of that stuff.
And it's very possible that a rider can be working on moving up and understanding, moving back or the foundation work. And if you stop and look at professionals, you'll actually realize that a lot of them inside the equine industry will specialize. They will specialize maybe in Colt starting or they'll pick a specific discipline, maybe raining or maybe dressage. And then even if you look at somebody who picks a specific discipline like dressage, a lot of times you'll find that inside of that discipline you'll have riders that focus on different stages inside of that discipline. So it's kind of fascinating, if you think about it, that a lot of the pros are really going heavy into the detail of their specialty. And yet if we look at a lot of our non-professional amateur riders that own horses and maybe show just a little bit or or trail ride, mostly, a lot of times they are accidentally saddling themselves with wanting to understand the whole spectrum. And hey, I totally encourage that because that's personally what I feel led to do is understand the full spectrum. But it is a big, big piece of pie to eat. And I just want you to understand where you're at and that it's all good as long as you're not criticizing yourself while you're learning.
When you have time, please share with me how this episode impacted your thinking. And you can do that by visiting Stacey Westfall dot com and leave your comment in the show notes for this episode. Thanks for listening.
If you enjoy listening to Stacie's podcasts, please visit Stacy Westfall dot com for articles, videos and tips to help you and your horse succeed.
Sonix has many features that you’d love including secure transcription and file storage, powerful integrations and APIs, upload many different filetypes, advanced search, and easily transcribe your Zoom meetings. Try Sonix for free today.
Your pod casts are wonderful! I am learning so much. I am at the opposite of the spectrum. I started with a geriatric horse, that has seen and done everything and now ready to branch out to perfecting my riding skills with a high school horse. I really appreciate how you have broken down your topics. You are putting into words how, most of us feel.
Stacy! Oh my goodness. I’ve been riding horses for 20 years. Let’s just say I’ve been content. Thinking I’m making tiny steps of progress but when the pressure is on for performance- things just don’t come together. I have been feeling stuck. That heavy ‘now what’, or ‘is this it’ thought constantly on my mind with my horse.
You have PERFECTLY articulated my horse life – I’ve been in the middle! For like… ever!!! Gaining tiny tips and pearls here and there, but nothing that really shifts me significantly out of the “middle”.
Thanks so much for adding clarity and helping me understand my stage of horsemanship. It certainly helps relieve that “now what” feeling. Though I have always sought further knowledge on horsemanship and training- in hindsight it was always in a sporadic way. Some basic tips, high level tips, sprinkled around. I’m planning to continue listening to your podcast and seeking help from some local trainers I trust. I’m making a more systematic way of learning: starting from Kindergarten now! 🙂
It’s pretty awesome- just found your podcast and this was the first episode I chose to listen to… I think it was meant to be.
This episode and many others, have really hit the nail on the head for me. I can see all the stages I’ve gone through as an adult rider and can see the stages in my kids as well. I just never realized someone actually put these stages into categories. We have always kept our kids mounted on finished, college educated horses. They all could ride them well and compete. While they learned how to ride, they didn’t know how to handle when they as the rider or the horse had issues pop up. We are lucky to have always have many resources to help us with this. Our daughter who is our youngest, at 12yo recently moved up to a 7yo horse. He’s super broke and well patterned but he needs her to ride him and guide him, he’s not the automatic older barrel/pole horse she’s used to. Her riding skills have sky rocketed. He’s forced her to think about how she rides and how he responds. I see her go between her dreamy phase of riding to a learning phase, depending on which horse she rides. And that is another point I really realized from this episode. I can ride an old broke horse and be unconsciously competent, and then get on my very hot horse and float right back to realizing I’m consciously incompetent, which at times have left me feeling very frustrated and doubting myself. When this happens I go back to the older horses we have to rebuild my confidence and then tackle my hot mess of horse once again. Thank you for all these episodes. They are tremendously helpful to me.
I’m glad you are enjoying the podcasts! I love pondering how all of these things I observe and experience fit together. I see all the learning I do with horses and life as building blocks. I like explaining all the pieces and how they can be put together!
Too many times I’ve seen parents give their children young horses so “they can learn together”. I cringe every time I hear this because it is so dangerous. Just like you said, “green on green makes black and blue”. What they don’t seem to understand is that both the young rider and the young horse need someone to learn from and preferable they need to do that learning separately. Your podcast really laid things out in an easy to understand manner. The rider doesn’t follow the same path of learning as the horse.
I have a 16 year old mare that suddenly refuses to walk along a part of my pasture. As far as I can discover, there aren’t any rabbit holes or gopher like holes. No obstacles that I can see, either. It’s just Kentucky Bluegrass and the perimeter fence. There’s pine cones on the ground from tall pines, but they’re in many places in the pasture. She hasn’t been afraid of them ever. She’s walked there countless times. The pasture has a gentle grade to it as well. Any suggestions?
My first thought is that if she had an ‘experience’ there, for example, something jumping out at her like a dog, she may associate it with that area for a while. If there is nothing going on that you can see did hurt her or could hurt her it might be interesting to observe for a while.
The other option is to use it as a training opportunity and see if you can lunge her/work her/etc in the area. Even if you do this though, be clear it will be an opportunity to work on your communication with her and may NOT change her free will use of the pasture. She may very well still avoid it.
Hi Stacy! I guess this comment is a tad off subject, but I couldn’t help but notice that your ways of training a horse, understanding that the horse learns in a natural straight line progression, and that it is different for the rider, made me think how similar thinking stategies would mesh pretty darn well in building reationships with other human beings. I wondered then, if you have sometimes noticed similarities, say, in training up your kids and training up your horses?
John, I do notice lots of similarities. I like to say it is because many things I observe, I believe, are life principles and therefore apply across many places in life.
That’s the way I see it anyway!
Thank you again, Stacy, for producing another great podcast for all of us! I love the way you put things together with your analogies and examples from your personal experiences. You are a wonderful teacher! I love your Jak sessions and learned so much from all of those.
Now, I have been so inconsistent with spending time with my horse over the past year that I find myself always starting at the beginning again and again. My horse is at high school level and we don’t stay at the beginning long, but, I do think it has been good for me to be WILLING to start at the beginning after time off with my horse. After all, it’s not a sprint but a marathon and a lifetime of learning if you’re open to that. I know, from my own experience, what regular riding 5 days a week can accomplish. Getting back to that schedule has been the challenge. I just have a never give up attitude and that has been so helpful for me. Thanks again for all that you do.
I would agree that the willingness to return to the beginning is key. I believe that one of the reasons my horses have excelled and had long careers is because I’m always returning to the basics. As you mention, I don’t stay there but I do check to make sure everything is working. Surprisingly there are often little things that are not working. A few little adjustments fix that and I prevent a bigger problem in my more advanced work.
The willingness to go back and forth is important for building a solid horse and rider.
Thanks for listening and commenting (and the complements:)
Stacy, another excellent episode! Your podcast has been a Godsend for me. I started colts for 2 years with my business partner and we were successful with our business. She ended up moving to Texas though and our colt starting business came to an end. In the in between I have struggled with feeling lost without horses in my life to the large extent they were before when I did it as a business. This episode encouraged me not to stop dreaming or learning. To not just be okay with okay. To take where I’m at and reach out to grow in knowledge and skill from here. Your podcast has got me thinking that way a lot more. I love listening to it because it provokes my thought process in regards to training horses and brings that mindset back to the surface for me. I’m looking forward to learning and growing in 2019. Thank you for always encouraging us to not be critical of ourselves either. Your podcast holds great content and I always look forward to listening to the new episodes!
Hi Stacy, again a very interesting podcast. I love how you break it down in to parts. This makes is much easier to understand. I have a 4 year old stallion in training, who was really disrespectfull when I first started. Very pushy, using his shoulders to run right trough me, not respecting my space at all. The owner had to use a whip when walking with him and they corrected him by using that whip. I have been working with him for a couple of months and he is doing very good. He is not in kindergarden anymore, not in college yet but like a high schooler. He is backing out of my space nicely, moving his shoulders and hips when I ask him to and he comes of pressure quite nicely. I´m pretty happy with the progress he has made in this time. But… he keeps on biting. Biting me, biting the rope, biting the fence. When he is backing up he tries to bite me, when I put on the halter he bites. Basicallly whenever he can reach me, he bites. I tried your chicking wings, but he doens´t care. It hurts me more then it hurts him. I tried a chain when I walk with him and tie him up, but again he doesn’t care. He keeps on biting the chain. I did make his feet move whenever he bites, but now he bites and starts lunging himself right away. Kind of like a kid grounding himself. The owner would hit hem whenever he would bite her. Now it is a game to him. Is he fast enough to bite us before we hit him? ( I don’t hit him. Let that be clear) The biting isn’t aggresive but it is a ‘playfull stallion behaviour’. But he is weighing around 600KG ( he is nog a quarter horse) And I don’t like to play and be bitten by a stallion who weighs that much. All the other groundwork he is doing fine, but I feel that the biting issues is one of the things keeping us from graduating to college. Any suggestions how to fix this? PS: His teeth were checked as well and all fine.
Habits and hormones. Stallions with a very high drive to bite are a challenge with no easy answer. If they are corrected early on during all human interactions it can be slightly easier but the ones that choose to be mouthy, choose that as an expression of their desires. I have had amazing stallions that were very well behaved, decent stallions that were behaved most of the time and stallions that were always pushing the boundaries.
When I trained for the public I dealt with all of them but as my business grew and my knowledge grew I started making different choices. In college (I went to an equine college) the vet had a saying, “A good stallion makes a great gelding”. He was noting that there was an improvement in some way when gelded.
In our industry, the stallions must be both athletic and trainable. Reining horses are required to reach a higher level of training than say a racehorse. Because of this, the horses are being bred to be both athletic and trainable. There are more and more stallions in our industry that are very trainable and easy to be around because of this.
In my world, my answer would be to geld him. I know this because when Newt was just turning two he started getting mouthy. He had always played with other horses using his mouth but he started doing it more and more to people. The distraction in his mind that was driving this behavior would have also cause distractions in other areas of training. I gelded him. I chose it early because I didn’t want his hormones to create other bad habits and I knew the distraction level was going to change the training and require me to be harder on him. Gelding him took away the desire to bite and made his life around humans and other horses easier.
There are other industries that may overlook the behavior for other qualities but I’m only going to speak from what I have seen. Twenty plus years later I agree even more with the wise old vet from my college years. A good stallion makes a GREAT gelding.
Another inspiring & confidence building podcast. I am one of those stuck at knowing when to push forward on groundwork. Knowing it’s okay to be in the middle takes away the fear & frustration that I punish myself with….. and allows me to go forward even if it’s only one step at a time. At this point in time I am stuck getting my horse to back out of the trailer. I feel I should be assertive yet I do not want to turn it into a bad experience that would make her reluctant to load easily. …………… so I give it much more time than I should … and still haven’t gotten her trained to back out. Never give up!!! Thanks for doing your podcasts and sharing your knowledge
Thanks Stacy! Finding a good mentor is a great idea. Sometimes I feel like someone can mentor me but refuses to show up.
Hi Stacy, I love the High School analogy. I thought my horse was pretty good at the high school level. But after a fairly long lull in being able to ride due to work, weather and life in general, he clearly went back to performing at a Junior High level. Suddenly, he balked a little at trailer loading, neck reined poorly, and speed control, stops and starts were not near as good as they were in October. Its very frustrating feeling like we both took a step backwards. I guess there is no substitute for hard work and consistent training. Another great podcast! Thank you!
This is my favorite episode so far. I remember my first real horse lesson 3 years ago where I spent the entire hour learning how to put the rope halter on properly and tie the horse safely. I remember my hands shaking the whole time because I knew how badly I wanted to learn EVERYTHING yet I had to practice the most basic task. I felt really dumb but at the same time had to face it if I wanted to live the dream. I’m still so critical of myself and lack of knowledge and experience but after listening to this I’m realizing how much more I could enjoy this process if I just take it easy. I feel encouraged and can’t wait to get back in the saddle.
Regarding the right horse match, the first horse I rode and learned on was safe but resistant. I learned SO much from interacting with him because he had a resistant and challenging personality. I also took lessons concurrently on a “confidence booster”. I felt like I could ride any horse and do anything after riding him. So while my physical riding skills improved, if I did not have that challenge from the other horse I would not be prepared for the time when a horse didn’t do what I asked or expected.
Oh, and I wish I had someone taking notes like this for me in graduate school. Would’ve made studying so much easier. ?
Even though I have ridden since I was very young, I only knew the basics–did not have a clue about the training process. When I purchased Hildy I did not realize how much education she was lacking. I used to get frustrated because I could not figure out why she acted the way she did in certain circumstances. From your videos, words of wisdom from your blogs, and the two clinics I have attended, I have learned so much. There is still a lot for me to learn, but I am much better at figuring things out when I come across a problem. I also enjoy helping my friend with her horse Louie. When I went to your clinic last year you showed me how to teach Hildy to line up next to the mounting block. When I got home I showed my friend Michelle, then I taught her horse Louie how to do it. It was fun. It is pretty cool to be able to help someone with their horse. I have also been teaching Louie how to side pass on the ground and he is doing a great job. I do have a hard time deciding on how hard to push Hildy and when to progress to the next level. It seems I stay at my comfort level too long. Maybe the question should be–How do I know when to go to the next level/how do I know when I should push myself to the next level???
This podcast really hit home for me. I loved your learning to drive a car analogy, and where the path may lead from there.
Growing up I had many friends who also loved horses. They were always going to big shows and what I call expensive “push-button” horses. I always felt a want to do what they did but was not able to. Sometimes I still shame myself (or feel inadequate) for not being at “that level”.
Your analogy reminded me that trail riding and general recreational riding was just as good as what they did/still do.
I’ve trained a handful of horses from the ground up. They may not be at that “masters” level yet, but we’re both a positive work in progress, and for me that’s more fun than being in a show pen.
Thank you for recognizing riders/trainers of all levels and not putting yourself above, but rather beside!
Thank you once again. You put into words a lot of what I’m feeling. It helps me to look at my horses and give them a grade. I want to get past highschool and struggling to do that. What are the next steps I need to do to learn more? Trainer?
Hi Stacy The way you present your information makes so many things fall into place. This discussion was exactly what I have been struggling with and hadn’t been able to explain it to trainers I had asked. I also have realized that through this process no one can stress enough that EXPIERENCE is a key component but the time and right choice of horse is so often over looked. I am very thankful for your podcast.
Stacy, this podcast really hit home for me. I often feel inadequate and “behind” in my riding and training and I easily get frustrated with myself. I feel like I’m letting my horses down and not getting them to their full potential due to my lack of knowledge. The way you describe the stages of learning while placing no judgment on yourself as the trainer is a whole new way for me to look at myself and this horsemanship journey I am on. Thank you so much for this. It’s exactly what I needed to hear to keep me going and striving!
Great podcast! I loved the bit at the end in Trainers specialising… my Husband spécialisés in colt starting and a lot of people come to see him with a lot of other issues. He always tries to help but you can see that they find it difficult to understand that you can have specialised in one area and redire have much less experience in another!
Stacy, I just love listening to your wisdom. I rode for many years until an accident left me afraid. Listening to your instruction is such balm for my soul. I remember wanting to know everything when I started. Going through your podcasts is helping me with the confidence I need to start riding again. I’m so very grateful to you.
I don’t fear the riding part once up I’m fine. It’s on the ground that I’m afraid which makes it difficult to ride my own horses. I’m weird, I know LOL I can groom no problem, pick feet and hang out. But put a halter on and walk around…yikes, Fighting with my own fears has got to be my most frustrating horsey lesson yet. After doing canter pirouettes I’m stuck at the most basic ground work!
Very interesting episode. I do see a lot of green on green and that can be a dangerous situation. I try to master so much on the ground with my horse before getting on.